Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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The new evidence is unveiled...
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954, ... 78,00.html

A pretty tenuous link if you ask me.. It looks like they are saying that Alonso and De la Rosa would text Coulghan for set-up info - who would then text the queries to Stepney...

The telephone records allegedly show messages being sent but not the content of them.

Apparently Coulghan and Stepney were messaging each other quite a bit. Alonso/De la Rosa were messaging Coulghan during race weekends.

Am I justified in thinking this is reaaaaaallllly scraping the barrel with regards to evidence?

They don't even know the content of the messages. You can't really prove much without the content (maybe they were organising dinner). I bet if you look at any team during test/race weekends the messages going back and forwards would be huge. But then again, how much technical info can you really send in a text? Wouldn't a phone-call be easier?

What next? McLaren abducted Madeline McCain too?

Rob W

wunderkind
wunderkind
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Rob W wrote:What next? McLaren abducted Madeline McCain too?Rob W
Exhibit C:

Ferrari also uncovered hundreds of dirty SMS messages from the mobile phone of the Australian cricketer Shane Warne. Ferrari further speculates that Vodafone is complicit to the affair as the messages were transmitted on Vodafone's network.

For all you cricket fans out there!!!!!! :D :D :D :D

wunderkind
wunderkind
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Rob W wrote:The likelihood of this being true is near on zero. Why? Because McLaren have a multi-year contract with Alonso. Even if he wanted to leave, it is not possible without McLaren agreeing to it.

As far as sponsors are concerned I really don't think a large organisation would jump to too many conclusions just yet. They're smart enough to wait for the outcome before making their mind up. Rob W
It has been reported in numerous publications that Alonso's lawyers have found a loophole in the McLaren contract. The loophole is similar to the one used by Schumacher to leave Benetton one year early in 1995. The loophole is a clause which gives Alonso the right to leave the team if he is deemed to have suffered reputational or other losses due to actions of the team.

With regards to the sponsors. The Spanish bank Santander and insurance company Mutua Madrilena became McLaren sponsors after the arrival of Alonso. I would hope their arrangements with McLaren is not contingent upon Alonso being at the team.

If you watched the Monza race trophy presentation. Emilio Botin (Chairman & CEO of Santander) was a little emotionless when he handed the constructor's trophy to Ron Dennis. So the whole spygate furore must be putting strain onto the relationship.

But having said all that McLaren's Ekrem Sammi does do a very good job at acquiring and holding onto sponsors.

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Rob W
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wunderkind wrote:It has been reported in numerous publications that Alonso's lawyers have found a loophole in the McLaren contract. ...

....The loophole is a clause which gives Alonso the right to leave the team if he is deemed to have suffered reputational or other losses due to actions of the team.
No they haven't. Every driver's contract would have this as standard. They wouldn't need any lawyer to help find any loophole - it would be a clear and obvious part of the contract without doubt.

A loophole is an unintended 'out' which wasn't foreseen by one or both of the parties.

Rob W

PNSD
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Rob W
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Sorry. :P
[IMG:450:151]http://i15.tinypic.com/63mbo5h.gif[/img]

Rob W

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mini696
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 02:34

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Allen Henry was talking on Speed TV and says most people on the grid believe it will be a blood bath for McLaren today, but that also there are rumours that McLaren have embarrasing revelations about other people on the grid that can be used for their (McLarens) defense.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Tom, it’s 0830 GMT,

8, place de la Concorde, 75008 Paris, France ... but it’s not like they’re facing the gallows at first light even if the Brit press has closed ranks and provided a suitably dreary drumroll to accompany Dennis through the fateful doors. It appears that no matter what the result of the meeting is, there will be a complaint made to the FIA International Court of Appeal. At the end of it all we might actually be grateful to see the this season through. I do hope it’s concluded before the start of the next one.

As reporters are sharpening

their pencils, swiping their keyboards, doing soundchecks and charging their mobiles in anticipation of the WMSC meeting in Paris (please, it’s not a trial), a few thoughts on what I’d like to see. Perhaps a bit audacious as I’m sure most of us here, myself included, have found actual facts elusive. First things first. I wouldn’t want to see McLaren completely excluded from the F1 championship. Currently I can’t imagine what anyone could’ve done to warrant such draconian treatment, the absolute collective punishment, for the entire team to become a pariah.

What the WMSC needs to show here more than anything is its responsibility in leadership. The FIA owns the F1 World Championship and in the end is responsible for it, period. Something has gone wrong when leadership has become solely an exercise in crisis control. By definition the issues that have to be addressed in this situation are larger than whether McLaren or some people within have broken the sporting code in some way. It is the focal point of the matter, yes, but if there isn’t a clear and acceptable way out and onwards for everyone involved the WMSC will have danced around its overriding responsibility towards very many people who work very hard, in good faith, to make F1 all that it can be.

It’s important to draw distinctions. There’s a difference between unacceptable bahaviour and not challenging it in a proper way. There’s a difference in how an individual bears responsibility and how an organisation does it. There are differences in how responsibilities are shared. Ferrari hasn’t come across as one of the most sporting teams in a long time. It certainly has seemed like many Italians have fallen over each other in a disorganised spectacle of futile attempts to aid “their” team in the “spy case”, così fan tutte as they say. But if Ferrari has been wronged, another wrong won’t make it right. Revenge isn’t justice. Towards anyone, of that I’m sure.

I wonder if the FIA couldn’t put an end to those many civil actions already begun in many countries by convincing the teams to let the FIA (or an FIA appointed truly independent body) bring a single concerted case in a specific country against absolutely everyone actively involved in this “spying”, regardless of their team? Thus the teams could take a respectable distance to the whole affair. In return the teams would drop any and all civil actions and wouldn’t begin any new processes. In such a case the FIA must see to it that the result against any one person would mostly serve to make a point rather than constitute an indefinite burden. Both the ones who will be headed out of F1 as well as the ones who have remained “sporting” enough to remain need closure. They’ve all got talents they deserve to apply and benefit from in the future, too.

If drivers have been actively involved, they (and subsequently their teams) deserve to be docked the amount of points they have received from races relevant to the case, and to sit out an equal number of races from here on for better measure (meanwhile the teams would race a replacement driver, of course). I really can’t see any sense in imposing fines in addition to how this would affect F1 revenue sharing. Unless the money goes towards a project in which the teams have to actively work together for the embetterment of the sport.

I can’t claim to know how all this should come together. I suspect it’s in human nature that it quite won’t, but to a degree it could. Let’s hope that’s enough. Let’s hope most of it makes sense. I don’t know about Ron, but I seem to be headed towards a slight bout of insomnia.

DaveKillens
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There are many times when the FIA (Mad Max) have warned teams and individuals against attempting appeals.... the message was .. if you appeal, expect to be excluded for the rest of the season. But it appears Todt and Ferrari are going to appeal their case to every outlet possible, until they find a ruling that pleases them. This entire affair has already covered the entire sport in many meters of pure s--t, and it just stinks.

I now see that the time has arrived where a few individuals believe they are bigger than this sport, and intend to have their way.. regardless of how much this tarnishes and sullies the reputation of F1.

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Rob W
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mini696 wrote:Allen Henry was talking on Speed TV and says most people on the grid believe it will be a blood bath for McLaren today,..
I tend to take quite a lot from Norbert Haug's comments yesterday. He said he was completely confident McLaren wouldn't be found guilty or punished. He is really close to the source - the closest of anyone who has commented so far.

Rob W

fastback33
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007, 08:45

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I didn't find out about all this drama till half way through the season until i happened to flip to speed and see the race. I finally got back into f1 after a couple of years with boring schumacher driving around. Now all this bs. about mclaren getting info from stepny etc. etc.

IMO ferrari (much love to them btw) need to quite bitching like little girls, mclaren need to get punished for THIS YEAR ONLY, and lets get some real effin' racing back in the sport. It's like there can never be a year without some major bs drama going on.

wunderkind
wunderkind
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checkered wrote:Tom, it’s 0830 GMT,

What the WMSC needs to show here more than anything is its responsibility in leadership. The FIA owns the F1 World Championship and in the end is responsible for it, period. Something has gone wrong when leadership has become solely an exercise in crisis control. By definition the issues that have to be addressed in this situation are larger than whether McLaren or some people within have broken the sporting code in some way. It is the focal point of the matter, yes, but if there isn’t a clear and acceptable way out and onwards for everyone involved the WMSC will have danced around its overriding responsibility towards very many people who work very hard, in good faith, to make F1 all that it can be.

It’s important to draw distinctions. There’s a difference between unacceptable bahaviour and not challenging it in a proper way. There’s a difference in how an individual bears responsibility and how an organisation does it. There are differences in how responsibilities are shared. Ferrari hasn’t come across as one of the most sporting teams in a long time. It certainly has seemed like many Italians have fallen over each other in a disorganised spectacle of futile attempts to aid “their” team in the “spy case”, così fan tutte as they say. But if Ferrari has been wronged, another wrong won’t make it right. Revenge isn’t justice. Towards anyone, of that I’m sure.
I think if all of us approach this Spygate matter with the impartiality and sanity as Checkered. This whole thing would have ended at the FIA WCMS meeting last month.

But Ferrari has been given the opportunity by Max Mosley to indulge and even take advantage of the system. As many forum members have pointed out before. Other teams that have landed themselves in hot water were told by Mosley that if they appeal the FIA decision, they risked the most draconian penalties such as a heavy fine, expulsion from the championship,and docking of all points.

Why was Ferrari given this special status to pursue their case through multiple venues (the FIA and courts in two countries)??

In my field of business (finance), if we decide to pursue our case with the highest industry body (such as the Takeovers Panel in the UK or HK), all parties must agree to be binded by the outcome before committing to this course of action. This is to ensure all parties play by the same rules set out by the Takeovers Panel and the outcome is final. The losing party cannot turn around and say we dont agree with the outcome and we're going back to the court to pursue our case.

Dont forget in 1999 Ferrari was found guilty to have been using illegal bargeboards but kept their first F1 Championship. But Ferrari was not penalised because the illegal bargeboards gave no performance gain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on Mr Mosley, you may as well tell us who the Champion is before the season begins.

Ferrari is doing this clearly with the intent of trying to get McLaren banned from the Championship so they can be the 2007 Champions.

If McLaren does get expelled (which they can appeal), I'd like to see Ron Dennis to continue their participation (under appeal) in the remaining races and beat Ferrari fair and square on the track and let the world know that the MP4/22 is a superior car to the F2007!

There is nothing special with Ferrari. It has shown time and time again that they are not interested in the wellbeing of the sport. They are only interested in themselves and they are a team driven by self interest only. They will quite gladly scorch the earth if it serves their purpose.

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cristobal
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Joined: 25 Feb 2006, 17:31
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First rumour from Paris:

McLaren will be excluded for the next 6 GP-Races - the last 4 Races in 2007 and the first 2 Races in 2008. That means, that, if anything goes proceeds as usual, Ferrari will get the two Titles ... :?

manchild
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cristobal wrote:First rumour from Paris:

McLaren will be excluded for the next 6 GP-Races - the last 4 Races in 2007 and the first 2 Races in 2008. That means, that, if anything goes proceeds as usual, Ferrari will get the two Titles ... :?
The day that becomes official (or any other disqualification) is the day I'm stopping watching F1 and writing my goodbye message on this forum.

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Sawtooth-spike
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Amen Manchild!

If they do it, i am going to find a way to making sure i get the the next 4 races canned. How i am not sure, but where there is a will there is a way.

Me and my dad both agree we will stop watch f1 if the FIA do something really stupid.

I am not Saying mclarren are 100% innocent. i am saying that this could of been debt with alot more profesionaly.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!