2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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It shed the tread in a delamination (at least that's how it looked to me). A puncture would have failed differently.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

theblackangus
theblackangus
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Well one thing is clear, you didn't see Nico blasting Pirelli after his issue in practice. I would find it funny if Pirelli presented Vettel a set of tractor tires the next race. The way Vettel spoke about one of the teams partners is un-acceptable, much like how Red Bull has treated their partners this year. There are up's and downs. it childish to berate a partner who brought you so much success in the past. If you have problems talk with them on the side in private in an adult manner.

Alot of people act like tires blowing out is some white elephant... worn hot tires tend to let go, you see if on semi trucks frequently and they are designed to be safe over fast. Even with the best of intentions products have production problems because that's the real world - its not perfect every time.

I was watching some sport car racing today and noticed that it was cement then grass, and amazingly the cars stayed on the track and didn't drive wherever they wanted to because it was a concrete play field.

I wonder if the FIA had enforced the 4 wheels off rules would this even have happened?

theblackangus
theblackangus
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Just_a_fan wrote:It shed the tread in a delamination (at least that's how it looked to me). A puncture would have failed differently.
Just curious - how would a puncture have failed and why?

sgth0mas
sgth0mas
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Joined: 18 Mar 2015, 03:42

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Lol pirelli are not a partner like renault, they are a mandatory vendor.

And semi tires are typically retreads with hundreds of thousands of miles on the carcass.

drunkf1fan
drunkf1fan
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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CriXus wrote:Vettel's last stint:

1:56.128
1:56.184
1:56.008
1:56.115
1:56.348
2:22.634 – VSC
2:04.049 – VSC
1:55.397
1:55.386
1:55.808
1:55.765
1:55.856
1:55.551
1:55.316
1:55.523
1:55.432
1:55.443
1:55.497
1:55.761
1:55.884
1:55.711
1:55.520
1:55.696
1:56.407
1:55.949
1:56.116

Nowhere near the end of the tire's life.

People don't seem to understand the Pirelli's, the old days you'd do laps and you'd lose say 2/10ths every 5 laps then all of a sudden you'd be losing 3/10ths per lap. They had as I understand harder and harder compounds as you went through the tire so you got less grip, got slow but the tire effectively was harder and stronger. The current tires are the same compound right the way through, temps dictate how fast they wear and if you keep them within the right temp you will wear them down to nothing without losing a single 1/10th in time. It's a case of (I have no idea the actual temps so these are examples) tire temps of 150c/15 laps, 140c/17 laps 120c/20 laps, 110c/25 laps, etc. The temps you run at dictate the lap time you can achieve. To go a certain length the team give the drivers a target lap time based on tire temp and they stick through it over a stint.

A few years ago you'd start a stint on say 1:50's, finish in 1:54's, the next stint would start at 1:47's and finish at 1:51's, etc. Now you do 15 laps at 1:51, pit, then do 15 laps at 1:48, pit then do 15 laps at 1:46.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/07/26/f ... e-for-win/

This being a great example, on the first chart click select none then select Vettel's times(for someone out front doing his perfect race strategy/target times). Absolutely flat stints, this is how these tires work, if he doubled the length of that first stint he'd have to drop temps and times but it would still be flat right up till you pit or the tire fails.


Now I'm both on the side that the tire really shouldn't fail like that, same compound through is clearly dangerous and putting in a super hard compound that is super slow to give the old 'off the cliff' indication to pit before your tire goes is sensible. However, Ferrari were utterly stupid, if they were going half the distance to the end their times would have been faster for 15 laps, then going back onto softs at the end faster again. He would have been IMHO a minimum of 10 seconds further up the track from Grosjean and extremely safe in third place had he been on a two stop strategy. The team also know what I'm saying, the tires don't degrade in the same way any more, there is an indication of tire life.

AFter practice/qualifying they will carefully see how much rubber is left on the tires and have a pretty good indication of how much further they might be able to go. I can't believe anyone would think going that long on a set of tires was a good idea. Not the first time Ferrari or ex Lotus people have attempted the one less stop strategy and seem it backfire badly.

The tires shouldn't be designed to fail in this way but they are and all the teams know it, they pushed their luck and asked for it basically, Vettel should be aiming his anger not at Pirelli but at the team for putting him at risk and FIA for asking Pirelli to make such tires.

I can fully understand Vettel's anger, it's just misdirected. As he suggested if that tire went a couple of seconds earlier he could easily have died in the resulting crash, easily. There was simply no sensible reason to attempt the one stop, two stop would have been significantly faster and at a track with one of the smallest time penalties for taking a pitstop. He'd have made back the pitstop probably twice over on a two stop strategy and not had this failure.

EDIT:- It's worth noting that Hamilton also said his tires were fine and asked to stay out, maybe it's something drivers aren't entirely aware of. These tires are perfectly capable of putting out just about the same lap time lap after lap(okay it's actually marginally slower but being offset by fuel) right up till they fail, Ferrari should absolutely have been aware of this, Vettel and the drivers really should be also.

stefan_
stefan_
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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The saga with Vettel's tire is simple. Ferrari pushed their luck and got burned, that's all.

On the other hand, I have only two words for this race: Romain Grosjean.

Image
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

theblackangus
theblackangus
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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sgth0mas wrote:Lol pirelli are not a partner like renault, they are a mandatory vendor.

And semi tires are typically retreads with hundreds of thousands of miles on the carcass.
A partner none the less, Ferrari needs a good relationship with them. If they don't have one you can bet they would not be successful.

The point stands, you don't treat partners or vendors that way if you do your just asking for preferential treatment, and not the kind of preference you want.

A buddy of mine actually sells semi tires, he said alot of what you see on the highways is because the truckers try to squeeze the tires for as much life as possible. (Or are just plain don't look as often as needed)
Last edited by theblackangus on 23 Aug 2015, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

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The_table
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014, 17:57

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Maybe ferrari were betting on rain? Also, tyres that show NO sign of degradation whatsoever until they fail ... (if kept in the right operating window) that is asking for trouble.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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stefan_ wrote:The saga with Vettel's tire is simple. Ferrari pushed their luck and got burned, that's all.
:lol:

Spoutnik
Spoutnik
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Everyone forgot one thing. That's Ferrari, the entire team, who take the risk and Vettel accept this risk, everyone now thoses tires are weak, especially on a really demanding track like this. Furthermore, Vettel could have pitted for a last stint on the Option tires and his podium would have been almost 100% secure, for me that's again a poor strategic decision by Ferrari, clearly. And they not bet on the rain, or they are so stupid the Merc are OP under the rain and that's the only team to bet on the rain, even Mercedes don't bet on the rain, who said "rain expected in XXX" at the radio ? No one.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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theblackangus wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:It shed the tread in a delamination (at least that's how it looked to me). A puncture would have failed differently.
Just curious - how would a puncture have failed and why?
It wouldn't have run on the "bladder" for a period in the way that Vettel did today. You can see the tread come off as a belt and then the car carried on for a few hundred yards before it went bang. A straight puncture would likely have lost air and broken up over a few hundred yards. Watch the incident and you can see the tread delaminate away.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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MercedesAMGSpy
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Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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Hamilton in total control.

Max Verstappen one of the best talents in motorsports.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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MercedesAMGSpy wrote:Max Verstappen one of the best talents in motorsports.

His move around the outside of a force india(?) at blanchimont had me cheering.
JET set

Edax
Edax
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Joined: 08 Apr 2014, 22:47

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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stefan_ wrote:The saga with Vettel's tire is simple. Ferrari pushed their luck and got burned, that's all.

"I'm no nationality but English," he said proudly, having pulled himself together in the caravan. "Roseanne is terribly upset. Being English, we need a bit of time to bounce back. Now we can have some family time, and see the people we haven't seen for months, and get some room to breath."

Mansell has a bit of a reputation as a whinger, but he was gracious in defeat. "I'm very, very pleased for Alain, but I'm disappointed for Nelson, and for Frank Williams, and the team. I think they acted in a very responsible way today."
That's another way to handle it.

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AnthonyG
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Joined: 03 Mar 2012, 13:16

Re: 2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

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stefan_ wrote:The saga with Vettel's tire is simple. Ferrari pushed their luck and got burned, that's all.

On the other hand, I have only two words for this race: Romain Grosjean.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNHLARgWsAA8S94.jpg:large
The car was good and the driver great, utterly deserved.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel