2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

[basti313]

I do not know why people claim "pushed their luck" as a good explanation of the tire failure. It was a delamination caused by wear, this should not happen. The tires are designed to be still driveable with bad grip when you wear them down. This happened a lot in the first few seasons with pirelli tires. The delamination of today is a delamination like we saw several in Silverstone two years ago.

[Jano11]

Who went as long as Vettel?

It doesn't matter as he was well below 40 laps. Cars are supposed to ride the Kerbs!

Being able to and supposed to are two quite different things. Curbs are there to disuade drivers from taking short-cuts, not act as some sort of aid or obstacle that has to be negotiated ala motorcross.

When did you start following F1? Looks like February 2015.
Have a look in the past.

[Jano11]

I do not know why people claim "pushed their luck" as a good explanation of the tire failure. It was a delamination caused by wear, this should not happen. The tires are designed to be still driveable with bad grip when you wear them down. This happened a lot in the first few seasons with pirelli tires. The delamination of today is a delamination like we saw several in Silverstone two years ago.

Fully agree.
There is a difference between a worn tire that has no more grip and yielding crap lap times, and a tire that explodes at high speed.
The first case is something normal for a race tire, the second one is not acceptable under any circumstances as it could have someone killed.
Some fans seem not to get the difference though.

Hopefully at least something good can come out of this, another manufacturer to replace Pirelli, they are only good at producing hot air through their marketing department.

[kledaras]

Did kvyat overtook massa off the track at lap ~8 and didn't get a penalty?

[zeph]

Am I the only one who expected Vettel's tires to fall off?

I saw it coming three laps prior to the blowout. I thought to myself "he didn't pit and he's gonna be a sitting duck."

When he turned it up to defend against Grosjean, I just knew his tires were gonna give out. I did not necessarily think they'd blow, but I knew he was not gonna be able to keep that up.

Now, I am at best a layman enthusiast. If I could guess that was gonna happen, are you seriously gonna tell me that all the pros at Ferrari felt he was good to go because Pirelli said so?

Because to me that seems highly unlikely.


Also, folks here seem upset, but it's not like blowouts at this speed have never happened before. F1 is dangerous, there is always risk. I wonder why it is such a big deal now?

[TAG]

I do not know why people claim "pushed their luck" as a good explanation of the tire failure. It was a delamination caused by wear, this should not happen. The tires are designed to be still driveable with bad grip when you wear them down. This happened a lot in the first few seasons with pirelli tires. The delamination of today is a delamination like we saw several in Silverstone two years ago.

Fully agree.
There is a difference between a worn tire that has no more grip and yielding crap lap times, and a tire that explodes at high speed.
The first case is something normal for a race tire, the second one is not acceptable under any circumstances as it could have someone killed.
Some fans seem not to get the difference though.

Hopefully at least something good can come out of this, another manufacturer to replace Pirelli, they are only good at producing hot air through their marketing department.

So your argument seems to be that tires should last much longer so that they never reach a situation where a tire can delaminate from abuse? I may be misunderstanding, but what is it exactly that you're looking for Pirelli to do? They've done exactly as the FiA have requested. It was an unfortunate result due to a gamble on Ferrari's part. I'm sure the hubub will continue till Monza though.

Silver lining for Ferrari, Kimi beat Vettel in Spa!

[FoxHound]

Also, folks here seem upset, but it's not like blowouts at this speed have never happened before. F1 is dangerous, there is always risk. I wonder why it is such a big deal now?

Vettel fans...

[Juzh]

Also, folks here seem upset, but it's not like blowouts at this speed have never happened before. F1 is dangerous, there is always risk. I wonder why it is such a big deal now?

Vettel fans...

Pirelli apologists...

[iotar__]

Am I the only one who expected Vettel's tires to fall off?
I saw it coming three laps prior to the blowout. I thought to myself "he didn't pit and he's gonna be a sitting duck."
When he turned it up to defend against Grosjean, I just knew his tires were gonna give out. I did not necessarily think they'd blow, but I knew he was not gonna be able to keep that up.
Now, I am at best a layman enthusiast. If I could guess that was gonna happen, are you seriously gonna tell me that all the pros at Ferrari felt he was good to go because Pirelli said so?
Because to me that seems highly unlikely.
Also, folks here seem upset, but it's not like blowouts at this speed have never happened before. F1 is dangerous, there is always risk. I wonder why it is such a big deal now?

- I didn't see that coming but of course it used to happen - it's anti-tyre hysteria that is fashionable now; from bad memory Button at Monza in 200x, Raikkonen had one while leading the race and going off I think(?)
- any car part can fail when pushed too much, if you're stretching the stint it's driver's job to take care of equipment and not cut Eau Rouge 10 times in a row. Too bad physical objects are not as accommodating for Ferrari as stewarding. Maldo went wide and probably damaged his car, wings fall off and suspensions fail too. Connection is clear, nothing happened to others.

Now Vettel has an excuse to focus on something else and not on his race pace and poor qualifying. Makes you wonder why the team has so little faith in his overtaking abilities that prefers to leave him for so long. In Canada it was pitstop every time there was a traffic ahead (Massa) and problems with every pass (Alonso, Hulkenberg, Maldo). You gambled and it was close, stop acting like a spoilt child after getting multiple presents here and in Hungary. At least Raikkonen had a great race from 16th in the 2nd best car, right Ferrari?

[turbof1]

There are some very interesting arguments that I readed on F1Fanatic:
-The discrepancy between what Pirelli assumed to be the expected lifespan of the tyre versus the laps it actually hold out, was 40 to 28. It's not what you can expect within a reasonable standard deviation.
-The 40 laps were about this specific circuit and not about a general number.
-Those 40 laps should have been estimated with a very high conservative approach for safety reasons.
-More importantly, each team gets a Pirelli engineer assigned who constantly monitors data.

One can describe the attempt to do so many laps as quite agressive, so perhaps Ferrari was a little bit optimistic trying it. However, I personally feel Pirelli has the bigger chunk of blame to bare: A total wrong estimation of the expected tyre life combined with no indication of tyre issues gave a false sense of safety. It should not have failed either: back in the bridgestone days the tyre would keep it together even after you'd wore out the rubber right do to the white canvas (which was very visible!). A mismatch between performance drop offs and tyre life is simply down to its manufacturer, not the one using it.

[hollus]

How is Pirelli supposed to know the exact tire life (for whatever setup everyone was running)? Based on the lots of testing they do?

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but to do a one stopper in SPA (so hard on the tyres) and after what happened to Rosberg...it wasn't totally unexpected.

[ringo]

I do not know why people claim "pushed their luck" as a good explanation of the tire failure. It was a delamination caused by wear, this should not happen. The tires are designed to be still driveable with bad grip when you wear them down. This happened a lot in the first few seasons with pirelli tires. The delamination of today is a delamination like we saw several in Silverstone two years ago.

I don't understand why people are complaining?
A tyre is not indestructible, the rubber wears off the more distance the tyre covers. That's just how tyres are.
This is not some freak tyre failure. Ferrari run the tyre till there was no rubber left on the carcass of the tyre structure.
That has nothing to do with the quality of the product. There are X millimeters of rubber on the tyre before it goes down to the belts, you wear it down past X your gonna have a bad time driving further on it. Simples!!

They pushed their luck and got burned. Next time they either monitor the rubber thickness or do 2 stops on a 2 to 3 stop race like what Pirelli tells them to.

Good race by Perez and Grojean. Also well done by Kyviat. Hamilton was in control and things kind of look ominous now once we get into his usual post midseason rampage.

[FoxHound]

How is Pirelli supposed to know the exact tire life (for whatever setup everyone was running)? Based on the lots of testing they do?

Agreed.

It's all theoretical. Hembrey did mention it was a range of between 28 and 40 laps. It was destroyed on the 29th.

This IF run in accordance with Pirelli's recommended pressures. Which I'm inclined to believe Ferrari ran more aggressively than the recommended optimum.
So how can between 28 and 40 still hold true if the pressures and track limits aren't being respected? That figure will drop, and anyone can see that if they just choose to look.

[SoCalWJS]

Vettel's last stint:

1:56.128
1:56.184
1:56.008
1:56.115
1:56.348
2:22.634 – VSC
2:04.049 – VSC
1:55.397
1:55.386
1:55.808
1:55.765
1:55.856
1:55.551
1:55.316
1:55.523
1:55.432
1:55.443
1:55.497
1:55.761
1:55.884
1:55.711
1:55.520
1:55.696
1:56.407
1:55.949
1:56.116

Nowhere near the end of the tire's life.

Looks like it started dropping off at about the 3rd lap from the end of listed laps to me. Fuel load was down to nothing and his times were going up. They are all 1/2 to 1+ second off of the prior laps with less fuel.
Doesn't that indicate things are dropping off?