Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[tarzoon]

Because the 2008 McLaren will be under so much scrutiny by the FIA, the sceptic in me believes they (the FIA) will be equalising the apparent harm done by McLaren by sharing the data with Ferrari.

Then McLaren will sue....

Then the FIA will be disbanded, and re-structured.

I don't believe that cars nowadays are that different to pass scrutiny easilly.

In any case, thanks for ruining such an exciting season.

[Belatti]

I dont see any problem in getting some benchmarks... every team did and does and in every industry is the same.

It should not be penalizaed and every team should take care and not letting info leak...

This WC has been ruined by Ferrari witch-hunt, once my favourite (remember V12) team and will always be remembered as the WC where:

bla bla bla bla happened and blablabla was WC without a reason and blblbllbllb.... was unfair and....

and thats not the way of rememberig a WC

[tarzoon]

Teams always copied each others designs. Recurrently. So it is quite difficult to tell whether the design was copied from pitstops pictures or files. In any case, let's hope for the best from Mo$ley and B€rnie.

[mcdenife]

Scarbs Wrote:

Simplified and in summary my information is on the Evidence presented yesterday was

Assuming, in the extreme, your source knows anything, you are telling me you can see no wrong in the way this has been conducted and this outcome??

Can anyone really hate mcl that much or be so blind.

[NickT]

Thanks for the update scarbs, appreciated as ever.

However, spying is not new to F1, it is endemic and the punishment certainly does not fit the crime, especially as McLaren have endeavoured to cooperate fully with the investigation and it looks like it was Ron Denis that reported the driver's emails. http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html Especially when you consider the Toyota case were industrial espionage was proven in the civil court but no action was taken by the FIA.

Perhaps it is time to try and clean up spying in F1 and make an example of a team, but this smells so badly of FIA pro Ferrari politics and Mr Mosley taking the opportunity of sticking the boot in on Mr Denis, you can almost taste it.

The only reason Jean Todt pursued it was because his ass is on the line if Ferrari lost the championship this year. And lets not forget that his whiter than white team won the first race this season with an illegal floor and his team's failure to adequately maintain their moving floor wind tunnel cost them in excess of 3 weeks test and development time.

Ferrari may have been handed the manufactures championship by the FIA this year, but they certainly haven't earned it

[scarbs]

Scarbs Wrote:

Simplified and in summary my information is on the Evidence presented yesterday was

Assuming, in the extreme, your source knows anything, you are telling me you can see no wrong in the way this has been conducted and this outcome??

Can anyone really hate mcl that much or be so blind.

McDenife
I’ll assume you don’t realise the access to F1 teams and the industry that I have. But to be clear on my comments here, I have had some of the evidence and several of the emails read out to me, from some one who has the actual Ferrari 160 page evidence dossier in front of them.

The first thing to say is I am completely convinced McLaren made use of the data they had received. This data was not the Stepney 780 page dossier, but detailed sheets of Ferrari set up data and strategy information, sent to the team before the races. It was seen at the highest technical level within McLaren and by two drivers. Two of these three people (plus Coughlan\Stepney) were not at the WMSC meeting this week to explain their actions.
This is different to copying or closely observing other teams. Having the facts before the event is completely unsporting. This is not usual form of spying that happens after the fact, where teams monitor and photograph each other, that is part of the game, everyone does it. McLaren should have told Ferrari some one was plying them with information, not gone and stuck it through their computers to see where is got them and planned race strategies around it. Then claimed they never saw anything, it was all kept in Coughlans back room.

I don’t hate McLaren in fact I don’t have a favourite team or driver, I am unbiased in that respect. Am I blind? I see a lot more of what goes on in F1 than most of the forum members here, so in some respects I have more vision of the facts than what appears through the media of from Fan boy forum members.

I agree, this whole saga has been carried in the usual inept FIA way. This was not a court case, but a hearing of presentations made by the two parties to the governing body. Clearly we should have had the full legal hearing. The issues have not been helped by McLarens obstinate refusal to come clean (still to this day) and complicated by Ferrari and Italy’s pressing of the matter. This should all have been solved at the first hearing, but for whatever reason wasn’t done so. I still feel without the facts being made public, this saga will not go away and people will have a coloured view of what has actually happened in the hearing.

Scarbs

[FLC]

Here you go:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346

On March 21 de la Rosa wrote an email to Coughlan stating: "Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car's Weight Distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro.

"P.S. I will be in the simulator tomorrow."

On March 25 de la Rosa then sent an email to Alonso setting out Ferrari's weight distribution to two decimal places on each of Ferrari's cars for the Australian Grand Prix.

Alonso then replied under a section headed Ferrari: "Its weight distribution surprises me; I don't know either if it's 100 percent reliable, but at least it draws attention."

De la Rosa then replied: "All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now. He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that."

The evidence then details emails from de la Rosa discussing a flexible wing, aero balance, tyre gas, Ferrari's braking system and the team's stopping strategy.

The evidence said: "In total, at least 288 SMS messages and 35 telephone calls appear to have passed between Coughlan and Stepney between 11 March 2007 and 3 July 2007."

"-there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confident information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so;

"- Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties."

Indeed amazing. In one word: yuck!

EDIT: better yet http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62348

[Scuderia_Russ]

Clearly McLaren had Ferrari data and senior personnel have used it. This would have advantages McLaren as they had not raced bridgestones tyres before and due to the tracks involved had not tested there either. This would have been critical information for the team to make use of at that stage of the season.
In My view the penalty is a farce, McLaren have lost their constructors point which is fair and big fine is good for TV, but the drivers were advantaged at these races and thus their points should have been stripped for at least those races. Additionally those involved in the sharing and subsequent dissemination of the data should be banned from FIA sanctioned sport.

Someone finally speaks some sense.

[Ciro Pabón]

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Re ... 07-01.html

The relevant e-mails:

“Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro.
p.s. I will be in the simulator tomorrow.”

“Ferrari”
“... its weight distribution surprises me; I don’t know either if it’s 100% reliable, but at least it draws attention... Alonso”

“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that. De La Rosa”

"I agree 100% that we must test the [tyre gas] thing very soon. De La Rosa"

“they have something different from the rest... not only this year. there is something else and this may be the key; let’s hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority! Alonso”

“ can you explain me as much as you can, Ferrari’s braking system with the [reference
to detailed technical information]? Are they adjusting from inside the cockpit…? De La Rosa”

"In total, at least 288 SMS messages and 35 telephone calls appear to have passed
between Coughlan and Stepney between 11 March 2007 and 3 July 2007. FIA"

"McLaren is reminded of its right of appeal. In the event that an appeal is lodged with the FIA International Court of Appeal, the effect of this Decision will not be suspended pending the outcome of that appeal. Max Mosley"

Ay, virgen.... sigh.

[naknak_56]

Oh dear that makes pretty convincing reading to me and fully justifies this "witch hunt" against Mclaren. Cant really see how they can still claim innocence after that!

[NickT]

The evidence is there and you can't refute it but I still think the overall advantage gained at that point in the cars development would have been minimal. The constructors points I can live with and a fine, but a 100,000,000 USD is still outrageous.

[ben_watkins]

here's my 2p worth..

from the FIA report, which i've read, there is a clear use of Ferrari secret info by Coughlan, Pedro de la Rosa and Alonso.

Coughlan may have not simply copied the Ferrari brake system, the loading profile or the flexi wings [we observers will never know this] - but may have influenced the design around the spirit of the Ferrari systems.

Alonso directly benefited from the secret data via his mate and countryman de la Rosa, to get a competative advantage.

It is also very clear that Hamilton had nothing to do with it. He may have unwittingly driven a car that had been changed due to the secret data but he didn't know about it - at least there is no written evidence, or telephone logs to show he did/does. Alonso would not ever give details of his setup to Hamilton, as he hates being beaten by him.

In my opinion Alonso is a cheat. He's escaped being fined/docked points as he was given immunity in the letter to the drivers from Max Mosely. Pedro de la Rosa is also a cheat. So is Coughlan and Stepney - Honda be warned!

I'm not sure but I think all the subdifuge was without Ron Dennis' knowledge. He seems really shaken up by the whole affair. He seems more worried about the reputation of McLaren being muddied than by any fine. The press of course love the $100USD fine, good headline - but to Dennis, it's his and McLaren's reputation that is most precious, not a small offset fine like that.

I hope that Hamilton beats that cheating Alonso on the track this weekend. I can't see Alonso being in a McLaren next year, as things stand today.

[bhall]

I've waited until all the facts come out to really wade into this. Now that they have, there's not really much to say.

McLaren are guilty of an egregious sporting crime, and they have been justly sanctioned. It's just a crying shame that the drivers involved had to be given immunity for the truth to come out, as they deserve equally harsh sanctioning for their roles in this mess.

I do however think that the entire World Championship should be vacated this year. Because of McLaren's actions, it's now impossible to know who the true World Champions are, both driver and constructor. McLaren and all its drivers* clearly benefited from Ferrari information, and I have no doubt that the standings would look markedly different had McLaren not come into contact with that information.

But as much as it would please me to see Ferrari crowned Champions, that matter should always be decided solely on the track, no matter what. Ferrari may very well deserve the title, and I think they do, but they didn't win it. If there can be no Champion then, well, as they say, "sometimes thems the breaks, kid." It would be much better for the sport to walk away completely clean of this folly.

*Remember that Hamilton was copying Alonso's Ferrari-inspired setup during his early run of success this season.

[mx_tifoso]

I hope that Hamilton beats that cheating Alonso on the track this weekend. I can't see Alonso being in a McLaren next year, as things stand today.

Why wouldn't he want to stay at McLaren next season? With their car he is going to take the '07 WDC .
With the way things are going....

And I believe we are all underestimating Hamilton's public appearance. He appears to be a good and honest person, simply driving his way to fame without doing any harm, but I seriously doubt it to be honest. He is coming out of this scandal "too" clean if you ask me, not realistic.

I do however think that the entire World Championship should be vacated this year.

+1

[nae]

having read the fia full statement i think macca are very lucky to still be racing this weekend, hopefully all will see sence and take in on the chin and let that be and end to the matter, somehow i doubt it!