Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
motobaleno
11
Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Blackout wrote:A small drawback that is largely 'offset' by the other advabtages of the split turbo design...
but a they discarded it because of the extra strain on the shaft.
or they discarded it because they didnt have anough ressources to make a shaft that can handle the extra straint... like Renault...
I don't think that handling the extra straint would be a problem at all from the point of view of the absolute "resistance" of the shaft...the problem is the extra inertia...
I don't think that the other manufacturers did not follow mercedes in their split design for technological limitations: it will be not so difficult to implement such a design.
right or wrong they do not think that the secret of mercedes superiority is there

User avatar
FW17
169
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I think Renault and Ferrari did not go for a Merc copy because they had only a limited number of tokens that they could use during winter. Both reasoned that the change of the compressor location would cause too many changes in the overall layout and number of tokens spent hence decided against it and rather did only change in size.


Honda had no compulsion

Shaft design? what is stopping them from using a hollow shaft? there is hardly any torque on it anyway.

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Is Honda MGU-K produced in house,or by Magnetti Marrelli or other outside suplier?
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Abarth wrote:
wuzak wrote:
riff_raff wrote:Location of the turbine is likely more of a concern than location of the compressor.
My point being that the location of the compressor (in the vee) dictates the location of the turbine - ie higher than desirable.
Since
5.4.2 The centre of gravity of the power unit may not lie less than 200mm above the reference plane.

we can safely assume that this is not too much of a concern.
The key word is less than. We're assuming both PUs meet the minimum. Honda's may not.

The same can be said about the MGUK. It is evident that the PU is severely down on power even during qualification. That leads me to believe the MGUK is not capable of delivering the max 160hp, especially if you believe Arai's comments on ICE output. The pictures showing the Honda MGUK size relative to the Mercedes supports this.
Honda!

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
93
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

But what is the logic behind purposely under-sizing the MGU-K? Doing so limits your harvesting capacity, and it's less efficient lap time wise to deploy less power for longer than it is to deploy more power for less time.

User avatar
Blackout
1566
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Honda MGU-K alot almost double smaller size from Mercedes

Image
IMO that part of the Honda PU is not the MHUK. Maybe that' a Kers transmission part.
The MGUK sits further forward IMO and doesnt look that small. (could be smaller than the Renault, Ferrari and Merc K though)
Image

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Cold Fussion wrote:But what is the logic behind purposely under-sizing the MGU-K? Doing so limits your harvesting capacity, and it's less efficient lap time wise to deploy less power for longer than it is to deploy more power for less time.
Perhaps they were sizing it based on the MGUH capabilities. I really don't know, but yes it seems illogical.

The KERS package Honda was developing before they quit F1 was less than the max that year. I think it was 70-80% of the allowed KERS power, don't remember the exact number.
Honda!

Jolle
Jolle
133
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

looking at the pictures how high the Honda turbo is compared to the Mercedes' makes me wonder. Honda (or better, McLaren) knew somewhere during 2013 how the layout of the Mercedes engine would be, and in the first parts of 2014 how efficient the unit with the huge compressor is (with having the compressor in front of the crankshaft, there is almost no limit with the diameter).

A compact (in diameter) compressor and a high mounted turbo must have got a huge potential that with all data available, Honda went for this solution, if not... doing it differently for the sake of doing it differently, in a formula with rules that doesn't allow to revolutionize your engine configuration (like they did in the past from going from a V10 to a V12), is a very very bad decision.

I still believe that Honda would build a good ICE with ease, with all their previous F1 experience, MotoGP, IndyCar, etc and with all data that McLaren has about the flow of energy inside the Merc PU, it would be a no brainer... or.. Merc didn't give them the right software/CE last year ;-)

User avatar
dmjunqueira
21
Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 20:55
Location: Brazil

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Blackout wrote:
ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Honda MGU-K alot almost double smaller size from Mercedes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COPeRd-XAAAoIJH.jpg
IMO that part of the Honda PU is not the MHUK. Maybe that' a Kers transmission part.
The MGUK sits further forward IMO and doesnt look that small. (could be smaller than the Renault, Ferrari and Merc K though)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COEH5uBWgAArD9t.jpg:large
I think the MGU-K size is compatible with this part on Honda's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndrdwPFKSj8, jump to minute 22):
Image
Image
Last edited by dmjunqueira on 09 Sep 2015, 13:17, edited 1 time in total.

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Trackside you can clearly hear that the Honda is still as rough as a badgers arse to be blunt.

There is clearly a problem with the ERS side, but that in turn reduces the effectiveness of the ICE. The ICE as far as i know is 30% smaller in size than the next smallest in the Mercedes, and is 25hp up on the Renault but 40hp down on Ferrari and 50hp down on the Mercedes to the Pre Monza Upgrade Spec, id say thats more like 55hp on Ferrari and 75hp down on Mercedes now.

The problem as I see, and hear it is this. The ICE can deliver more power, however it is unable as the TC can't get enough air into it as the MGU-K is too small and frankly unreliable, the MGU-H is trying to make up the slack, but the MGU-K is the bottleneck. The ES is pretty much reliable as it is to the same standard as the rest, as 14 & 22 both are on target id say, however 14 is maybe going to take a penalty for afresh ES later in the year.

If Honda got the MGU-K up to a standard that took the workload off the MGU-H, it would allow the MGU-H to do its job and also make the TC run at a proper efficiency to make the ICE run to full power. It would also allow the CE not to burn out. I still think the Honda unit is a good unit, just immature compared to the other 3 power units in F1. I think Honda will have a better solution over the winter and into 2016, but i think 2016 will be another year of catching up and coming up to a proper standard.

Once Honda get the thing working correctly, i think the unit will be a good one, one that will be up there with Mercedes. The one thing that Honda are catching up on is the knowledge base loss from them pulling out in 2008 till coming back this year, a 7 year loss that Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault learnt so much in the Exhaust Blowing days and ways that the engine can be run. Even when Toyota was running the TF109 for Pirelli, they learnt so much that overlapped into their LMP engine i am lead to believe. The only two manufacturers that lost that base was BMW and Honda. Look at how bad the Cosworth CA2010 was to the rest in 2010, barring the Hulkenberg Pole lap in Brazil, it was poor and that was on a 3 year gap from them leaving in 2006.

Im not making excuses, I'm stating what i believe and have heard trackside this past weekend, Honda have lost face and this is hurting their pride, and i think this will be the spur for them to get their way out of their problems. They will want to build a new engine that is a belter and come back better and stronger. However its their knowledge base i worry about being not large enough. The V8s from 2008 to 2013 gained 90hp in those years and ended up over the 800hp mark for 2 of them and just under for the other 2. This knowledge will have been used for the V6T architecture and this is where i think is one of the two weaknesses of the Honda right now with the ERS problems.

User avatar
diffuser
236
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:Wow.. nice work.

It is so much smaller. No matter why it has cooing problems.

Look at how much higher honda's turbo is too.

The good news is, there seems to be lots of space there.

wuzak
wuzak
467
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Abarth wrote:
wuzak wrote:
riff_raff wrote:Location of the turbine is likely more of a concern than location of the compressor.
My point being that the location of the compressor (in the vee) dictates the location of the turbine - ie higher than desirable.
Since
5.4.2 The centre of gravity of the power unit may not lie less than 200mm above the reference plane.

we can safely assume that this is not too much of a concern.
You are assuming that Honda have their CoG down to that level.

If they are, it may have compromised the strength of bottom end components that are built lighter to compensate.

drunkf1fan
drunkf1fan
28
Joined: 20 Apr 2015, 03:34

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

ESPImperium wrote: The problem as I see, and hear it is this. The ICE can deliver more power, however it is unable as the TC can't get enough air into it as the MGU-K is too small and frankly unreliable, the MGU-H is trying to make up the slack, but the MGU-K is the bottleneck. The ES is pretty much reliable as it is to the same standard as the rest, as 14 & 22 both are on target id say, however 14 is maybe going to take a penalty for afresh ES later in the year.

If Honda got the MGU-K up to a standard that took the workload off the MGU-H, it would allow the MGU-H to do its job and also make the TC run at a proper efficiency to make the ICE run to full power.
I don't see how this is possible, the ICE will be running at full power unless it is unreliable for the ICE alone. The ICE requires a given rpm to get the air it needs to max out, if it's capable of hitting that rpm then the mgu-h/k can't bottleneck it. The mgu-h for harvesting will only reduce that air to the engine when harvesting, not increase it so it can't bottleneck it. If the engine maxed would push a higher than safe rpm they open the wastegate to bring the turbo rpm down, but still it has nothing to do with the mgu-h/k. They effect the overall PU efficiency and a problem with either means running a lower ICE setting to get to the end of the race on 100kg of fuel, but qualifying is effectively fuel unlimited but they are as far behind in qualifying as anywhere else.

What I've heard Arai say repeatedly(but in often badly translated english) is they run out of power down the straights and can't fill up the battery properly. If the mgu-h was harvesting fine and only the mgu-k was the limit I can't see why they'd have trouble with charging the battery, the mgu-h would charge it fully. I also can't imagine anyone would be incompetent enough to make a mgu-k not capable of pushing 160bhp. While I can see making an mgu-k that is too small with insufficient cooling this would once again be far more of an in race problem. For a single qualifying lap I can't believe they couldn't max out the mgu-k if the power was there from the battery/mgu-h.

At this stage of the season they would have gone maxed out on the mgu-k if the power was there for an uber qualifying lap, even a half lap before the mgu-k blew. They could show how S1 times were comparable to a better engine, they haven't because they can't not because they won't.

At this stage of the season if the mgu-k was either insanely unable to even hit 160bhp, or overheated so badly it couldn't be used for even half of what the other teams can do they would have used tokens to replace it by now. Instead they used tokens for a new turbo and mgu-h at Canada.

It's also turbo/mgu-h that keeps dying. They brought both new upgraded to Canada and promptly used 2 or 3 turbos/mgu-h's a piece without finishing a race before reverting to the old engine for Silverstone and finally finishing a race with that engine in Hungary, one of the lowest power tracks. The recent comments about needing to change the layout, again realistically a change of the mgu-k wouldn't need a layout change of the engine, change in chassis maybe but the mgu-k will almost certainly stay where it is. Hell, if the mgu-h/turbo isn't the issue why do they keep dying if they are just opening the wastegate and not even using it much why is it consistently failing?

All year long everyone has focused on and talked about stuffing a compressor in the V, having the mgu-h with limited space and cooling, a small compressor, lots of rumours that it has to run very fast(and not reliably) to generate the air it needs for the ICE. Running fast with a limited amount it can harvest is what explains pretty much everything about the engine.

The layout change will I'd bet good money, mean the compressor out of the V, more cooling on the mgu-h, increasing the size of the compressor/turbine and running a lower rpm as a result.

jfxavier
jfxavier
3
Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 01:18

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

drunkf1fan wrote: It's also turbo/mgu-h that keeps dying. They brought both new upgraded to Canada and promptly used 2 or 3 turbos/mgu-h's a piece without finishing a race before reverting to the old engine for Silverstone and finally finishing a race with that engine in Hungary, one of the lowest power tracks.
Does that mean they reverted back to the old style MGU-H for the rest of the season? or just replaced the ICE due to failures?

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Jolle wrote:looking at the pictures how high the Honda turbo is compared to the Mercedes' makes me wonder. Honda (or better, McLaren) knew somewhere during 2013 how the layout of the Mercedes engine would be, and in the first parts of 2014 how efficient the unit with the huge compressor is (with having the compressor in front of the crankshaft, there is almost no limit with the diameter).
it's very possible that Honda suffer from NIH* Syndrome.

*Not Invented Here
"In downforce we trust"