Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[tuj]

Ferrari is reporting that they have picked up 40hp just in fuel+combustion chamber optimization. Supposedly the Mcl's last year running the Merc engines were down almost that same amount of HP to the factory team because of their obligation to use Mobil fuel, which has not been optimized for the engine.

My take: Honda isn't working with Mobil closely enough. They also got the MGU-K sizing wrong, and apparently its ability to dissipate heat wrong.

Honda has already changed their 'combustion concept' once this year according to Arai and it didn't seem to show much in the way of increased performance. I am convinced that the name of the game with the 1.6's is to get as efficient of fuel burn as possible so you can run max boost without detonation, and generate a lot of hot gasses to the turbine. The only way to do this as well as Merc and Ferrari is to have your own fuel and develop it in conjunction with the combustion concept.

[alexx_88]

As it was said before, get the combustion more efficient and you actually get less, not more energy for the turbine. They are already burning all of their fuel, but making the engine less susceptible to knocking allows them to increase their compression ratio, thus extracting more energy through the crankshaft, rather than trying to recover it through the turbine.

Overly simplifying, increasing the compression ratio gives you that energy at 100% efficiency, while recovering it through the turbine, transform it into electrical energy and then putting it to use is less than that.

That's my understanding of it, at least.

[PlatinumZealot]

looking at the pictures how high the Honda turbo is compared to the Mercedes' makes me wonder. Honda (or better, McLaren) knew somewhere during 2013 how the layout of the Mercedes engine would be, and in the first parts of 2014 how efficient the unit with the huge compressor is (with having the compressor in front of the crankshaft, there is almost no limit with the diameter).

It is really time available I think. Honda just did not have enough time. These designs are so complex that to change the fundamental backbone of it can take years. (Ask any engineer that works in big company! lol)

[mrluke]

looking at the pictures how high the Honda turbo is compared to the Mercedes' makes me wonder. Honda (or better, McLaren) knew somewhere during 2013 how the layout of the Mercedes engine would be, and in the first parts of 2014 how efficient the unit with the huge compressor is (with having the compressor in front of the crankshaft, there is almost no limit with the diameter).

It is really time available I think. Honda just did not have enough time. These designs are so complex that to change the fundamental backbone of it can take years. (Ask any engineer that works in big company! lol)

Ferrari did it in less than a year. Honda seem to have chosen to follow ferrari down a dead end route despite having spent a year watching ferrari do it.

A wise man doesn't just learn from his own mistakes, he also learns from the mistakes made by others.

[gruntguru]

As it was said before, get the combustion more efficient and you actually get less, not more energy for the turbine. They are already burning all of their fuel, but making the engine less susceptible to knocking allows them to increase their compression ratio, thus extracting more energy through the crankshaft, rather than trying to recover it through the turbine.

Overly simplifying, increasing the compression ratio gives you that energy at 100% efficiency, while recovering it through the turbine, transform it into electrical energy and then putting it to use is less than that.

That's my understanding of it, at least.

When you get it right - both crankshaft and turbine work will improve. Goals are:
1. Burn all the fuel with minimum dissociation (reverse reactions)
2. Complete the combustion as early after TDC as possible (without detonation of course.)
3. Minimise heat loss to the chamber
4. Maximise expansion before EVO

It is true as you say that finding increases in crankshaft work is more "desirable" than turbine work.

Apart from the obvious measures, almost everything you do to improve one of the above will disadvantage another.

[wuzak]

Ferrari did it in less than a year. Honda seem to have chosen to follow ferrari down a dead end route despite having spent a year watching ferrari do it.

A wise man doesn't just learn from his own mistakes, he also learns from the mistakes made by others.

Ferrari had the ICE basics right. Just mucked up some features and, especially, the ERS.

Not sure if Honda have as good a base on which to build.

[djos]

Ferrari had the ICE basics right. Just mucked up some features and, especially, the ERS.

Not sure if Honda have as good a base on which to build.

Exactly right, iirc correctly Honda's last F1 ICE had non-optimal power delivery and was down on power to begin with. By the end of the V8 era the Renault, Merc & Ferrari ICE's were apparently very equal in terms of power and drive-ability and quite likely worlds apart from Honda's final 2008 ICE.

So I guess my point is Renault, Merc & Ferrari had 5 years more experience in optimizing high performance F1 ICE's and Honda have a lot of catching up to do in general.

[Wayne DR]

From what I have seen:

- Both Honda and Renault are using an air-air intercooler in the side pods.
- Ferrari use an air-water intercooler located in the vee of the engine.
- Mercedes use an air-water intercooler located above the fuel tank.

The Merc and Ferrari solutions have less volume in the high pressure air system between the compressor and the inlet valves. The Renault and Honda solutions have significantly more volume in the high pressure air system between the compressor and the inlet valves.

The additional volume in the Renault and Honda solutions must impact power production and efficiency, as compressing the additional air must consume some energy.

How much do you think this has to do with both Honda's and Renault's woes?

[j.yank]

Does somebody know how long MGU-H has should work to overcome the turbo-lag?

[mrluke]

Does somebody know how long MGU-H has should work to overcome the turbo-lag?

The time between the driver coming off the throttle and reapplying it so you are talking fractions of a second in most instances.

[Wayne DR]

Does somebody know how long MGU-H has should work to overcome the turbo-lag?

That was kind of my point, the MGU-H would have to run longer (using more energy) in the Honda and Renault designs to overcome lag.

[FW17]

Ferrari had the ICE basics right. Just mucked up some features and, especially, the ERS.

Not sure if Honda have as good a base on which to build.

Exactly right, iirc correctly Honda's last F1 ICE had non-optimal power delivery and was down on power to begin with. By the end of the V8 era the Renault, Merc & Ferrari ICE's were apparently very equal in terms of power and drive-ability and quite likely worlds apart from Honda's final 2008 ICE.

So I guess my point is Renault, Merc & Ferrari had 5 years more experience in optimizing high performance F1 ICE's and Honda have a lot of catching up to do in general.

Honda in v8 in 2006 was not so bad but things started going down hill for BMW Honda and Renault after Ferrari and Merc started playing around a lot on the reliability clauses and improving the performance.

Renault were allowed to play catchup at end of 2008

The engines regs also continuously changed with increase in mileage and reduction in revs when the engines were supposed to have been frozen

[mclaren111]

Lots of areas left for Honda to improve on

I agree that McLaren will only advance to midfield / front of midfield next year

Sky F1 regarding Merc PU:

It would be more accurate to say that the combined power unit and Petronas fuel was more powerful – for fuel technology has proven to be the most potent development tool in the hybrid turbo-charged formula since its introduction last year. It's a similar story at Ferrari, where gains of 40bhp have been made during this season, just from the fuel alone.

It's a symbiotic process of development – "lots of small steps together that make one significant step in total," as Mercedes HPP boss Andy Cowell explained. "It all comes together beautifully."

[godlameroso]

Is exhaust to drive the turbine based on rpm or boost pressure? I mean normally one cannot occur without the other, but this F1 thing isn't normal. For all intents and purposes it's an electric supercharger/turbo, so boost pressure can exist independent of rpm. The turbine is being fed by the compressor, and the ICE, and we have a motor generator. My question is, given how efficient turbines are, would this turbine be able to use only MGU-H to be kept in self sustaining mode independent of ICE operation? Then when engine power exceeds MGU-H efficiency it goes into generator mode, much like we saw Mercedes do in Monza.

[bergie88]

Is exhaust to drive the turbine based on rpm or boost pressure? I mean normally one cannot occur without the other, but this F1 thing isn't normal. For all intents and purposes it's an electric supercharger/turbo, so boost pressure can exist independent of rpm. The turbine is being fed by the compressor, and the ICE, and we have a motor generator. My question is, given how efficient turbines are, would this turbine be able to use only MGU-H to be kept in self sustaining mode independent of ICE operation? Then when engine power exceeds MGU-H efficiency it goes into generator mode, much like we saw Mercedes do in Monza.

Youre 1st question is not clear for me, you are talking about driving the turbine and boost pressure, but those things are happening at different sides of the turbocharger .

About the 2nd question: Yes, this is possible. The MGU-H is able to deliver energy to the compressor when the turbine is not delivering enough power yet to the compressor and it can harvest energy from the turbine when the turbine delivers too much power.

It can even be kept in self-sustaining mode, which is called the "qualy" mode, because it can only be used for one lap (or when it is desired during the race) due to the limited battery capacity. In this mode the waste gate is fully opened to reduce the backpressure to the engine, while the MGU-H powers the compressor to deliver the desired boosted air.