Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[diffuser]

Partly that is true. But remember the Honda F1 team of 2007 to 2008. It certainly didn't help them then. Their V8 engine that year was very mediocre and also the chassis was truly horrific after they took over the technical deveoplment from BAR. Also remember with the exception of 1986 to 1988 Honda's engines havn't been the best either. From 89 onwards the Renault V10's and Ferrari V12's were usually better. I mean its not like their racing pedigree is all that great when you look at it. They owe most of their championships to Prost and Senna.
If the relationship hangs together for next year I think that will be the litmus test for Ron Dennis and Honda. I have to say though based on past form i'm not that optimistic. Looks like Arai is out possibly before Singapore. They need to get someone like Mario Theissen in. Hona really seem to be lost again just like 2007 2008.

Why blame Arai? His team has done the near impossible. They got on the grid in only 18 months. It is unfair to sack a man that has delivered the engine in the time Mclaren wanted it. To me, it is a bitter sweet success, but a sucess none-the less. Even Ferrari who had three full years did not produce a winner the first time out. I think any higher expectations were nostalgia fueled. Let us give them to the end of next year at least to come on terms with Ferarri or even somewhere close.

agreed, we need to see what he does next. If the PU isn't at least at Ferrari 2015 then he's in trouble (IMHO).

[Thefuelman]

Why blame Arai? His team has done the near impossible. They got on the grid in only 18 months. It is unfair to sack a man that has delivered the engine in the time Mclaren wanted it. To me, it is a bitter sweet success, but a sucess none-the less. Even Ferrari who had three full years did not produce a winner the first time out. I think any higher expectations were nostalgia fueled. Let us give them to the end of next year at least to come on terms with Ferarri or even somewhere close.



agreed, we need to see what he does next. If the PU isn't at least at Ferrari 2015 then he's in trouble (IMHO).

The whole Monza press conference we are "25 bhp ahead of Renault" and Spa "we have an upgrade to put us on par with Ferrari" made a desperate situation worse. He effectively signed his own death warrant then. Back in 2014 when they were trying to get the mp4=29H running and failing miserably should have had them taking a new approach but they seemed very laid back and the same it'll be alright on the night attitude from Honda and Arai
There was a point just before the season started where the situation was the car would lurch out of the pits leaving two black tyre marks on the garage floor because there wasn't a software mode on the engine allowing it to perform a get away from the pits, just the startline launch procedure. McLaren engineers had to step in and rectify it just before the season started mainly for PR reasons. Regardless the McLaren Arai situation has already run its course and is irrepairable, I imagine if he was to stay that the Honda McLaren wont be together next year.
Assuming Alonso's comments on Monza were true that they loose 3 tenths in the corners and 3 seconds on the straights even I must concede that the MP4-30 could be one of the best cars on the grid. Ill go further and say that i'm sure a majority of the 3 tenths lost in corners is down to having to run severly trimmed car. If they ran a ferrari or Merc engine im sure at least 2 of those 3 tenths would come back.
However I digress. Arai's position is untennable and he needs to go PDQ. If they still use Honda next year, and it does seem to be IF Arai surely cannot be there.

[a1b2i3r45]

Partly that is true. But remember the Honda F1 team of 2007 to 2008. It certainly didn't help them then. Their V8 engine that year was very mediocre and also the chassis was truly horrific after they took over the technical deveoplment from BAR. Also remember with the exception of 1986 to 1988 Honda's engines havn't been the best either. From 89 onwards the Renault V10's and Ferrari V12's were usually better. I mean its not like their racing pedigree is all that great when you look at it. They owe most of their championships to Prost and Senna.
If the relationship hangs together for next year I think that will be the litmus test for Ron Dennis and Honda. I have to say though based on past form i'm not that optimistic. Looks like Arai is out possibly before Singapore. They need to get someone like Mario Theissen in. Hona really seem to be lost again just like 2007 2008.

Why blame Arai? His team has done the near impossible. They got on the grid in only 18 months. It is unfair to sack a man that has delivered the engine in the time Mclaren wanted it. To me, it is a bitter sweet success, but a sucess none-the less. Even Ferrari who had three full years did not produce a winner the first time out. I think any higher expectations were nostalgia fueled. Let us give them to the end of next year at least to come on terms with Ferarri or even somewhere close.

agreed, we need to see what he does next. If the PU isn't at least at Ferrari 2015 then he's in trouble (IMHO).

If Honda & Mclaren top hierarchy feels they need to change then it has to be now. They cant expect to win in 2017 making changes late into 2016.

[ripper]

There's a lot of talk about Mclaren chassis and aero, but there's something that I can't understand: how much did they sacrifice their PU in order to get their "size 0 philosophy"? Maybe they created an excellent chassis with wonderful air flow, but Honda had to shrink so much their packaging that now it isn't working properly or as expected.

I would have adopted a less extreme packaging for the first year (both aero and PU wise), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Thunder]

Forget Size Zero.

"Size Zero" is a PR thingy from Ron stating their packaging is now finally at a state of the Art level and not like the 4/29 where you could fit a suitcase into the Space between Engine and Sidepods, nothing more. The Red Bull is just as tight , Ferrari , FI and Merc are very tightly packaged too (with way smaller Hot Air exits). And Honda has already stated their Heat Problems didn't stem from Airflow in the Chassis but more punctual Heat spots in the Block.

It's not like either the PU or the Sidepods / Engine Cover are 20% smaller than every other Car.

[Thefuelman]

There's a lot of talk about Mclaren chassis and aero, but there's something that I can't understand: how much did they sacrifice their PU in order to get their "size 0 philosophy"? Maybe they created an excellent chassis with wonderful air flow, but Honda had to shrink so much their packaging that now it isn't working properly or as expected.

I would have adopted a less extreme packaging for the first year (both aero and PU wise), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I partially agree with this statement. However if you take into account development of lack thereof it builds a picture. They are still very unreliable. The fixes to the PU that they bring are not really all that effective, same issues all the time, energy recovery not deploying and when it does it is insanely weak. The problems they have today are very much the same as the problems they had when running the old MP4-29H. In that chassis they had the opportunity to to install a prototype unit but it was just as poor as it is now all things considered. They appear to have gained some reliability since Austria, besides that it very hard to pinpoint any really area of improvement, it still even makes those same gurgling spluttering noises it did in preseason testing.

[GoranF1]

[Blackout]

Forget Size Zero.

"Size Zero" is a PR thingy from Ron stating their packaging is now finally at a state of the Art level and not like the 4/29 where you could fit a suitcase into the Space between Engine and Sidepods, nothing more. The Red Bull is just as tight , Ferrari , FI and Merc are very tightly packaged too (with way smaller Hot Air exits). And Honda has already stated their Heat Problems didn't stem from Airflow in the Chassis but more punctual Heat spots in the Block.
It's not like either the PU or the Sidepods / Engine Cover are 20% smaller than every other Car.

Size is not just about widht... there is also the length.

You cant deny the Honda PU is very small and has a very short footprint on the floor: The distance between the very front of the PU (oil tank, compressor intake ert) and the very rear (turbine) is very short like the Merc PU.
The Honda maybe is not as tight (front view) as The Ferrari and Mercedes, because it has a classic air-air intercooler in the right hand sidepod (while the Merc and the Fer have respectively a monocoque/engine-integrated water intercooler)
shortness has also many benefits on the chassis and the PU.
Many of the Honda radiators hang above the PU and free up some space in the sidepods.
The RenaultPU has a wider and a much longer footprint compared to the others.

[BanMeToo]

Jenson: “We're not deploying out of turn 5 or the exit of turn 7, so we are 160HP down on other people, plus the deficit we have on the ICE"

Lesmo and Ascari?

They out of power already? Literally two straights and they out of power?!!

Sad but it's tough to harvest at Monza, plus their as yet subpar energy systems... there's the result.

[Wazari]

There's a lot of talk about Mclaren chassis and aero, but there's something that I can't understand: how much did they sacrifice their PU in order to get their "size 0 philosophy"? Maybe they created an excellent chassis with wonderful air flow, but Honda had to shrink so much their packaging that now it isn't working properly or as expected.

I would have adopted a less extreme packaging for the first year (both aero and PU wise), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think they sacrificed a lot and you can't forget size 0. I speak with two people on staff at Honda Racing on a regular basis. One being a relative and one a friend who I met at Toyota Racing. We did not work at Honda Racing at the same time. I do know they virtually scrapped their initial design concept they started in Q4 of 2013 when they received the size dimension requirements of the PU for the 4-30 chassis in mid 2014. That is why I don't understand why Honda didn't put their foot down at that time and tell Ron Dennis it can't be done. Oh well, what's done is done and now everyone is feeling the pain including me. I have my doubts about the MP4-30 chassis as being excellent. If you put Merc's current 2015 PU into the MP4-30, I really don't believe it would be any quicker than Williams and certainly not up to Ferrari.

[Thunder]

That is why I don't understand why Honda didn't put their foot down at that time and tell Ron Dennis it can't be done.

See that's the thing, obviously they didn't (and don't) think it can't be done. And if they were too proud to tell McLaren it can't be done all the worse. But i believe they will sort it out for next year without going bigger. They just have to. Like Toto said at the beginning of the Year, what Honda does is R&D on an open Field. This year can (and must) be seen as a Testing Year (that has already cost them a lot of Money and 2 Sponsors), if the PU doesn't get better next year i see big Tensions coming up. I'm not too sure McLaren can afford another Season like this one.

[diffuser]

There's a lot of talk about Mclaren chassis and aero, but there's something that I can't understand: how much did they sacrifice their PU in order to get their "size 0 philosophy"? Maybe they created an excellent chassis with wonderful air flow, but Honda had to shrink so much their packaging that now it isn't working properly or as expected.

I would have adopted a less extreme packaging for the first year (both aero and PU wise), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think they sacrificed a lot and you can't forget size 0. I speak with two people on staff at Honda Racing on a regular basis. One being a relative and one a friend who I met at Toyota Racing. We did not work at Honda Racing at the same time. I do know they virtually scrapped their initial design concept they started in Q4 of 2013 when they received the size dimension requirements of the PU for the 4-30 chassis in mid 2014. That is why I don't understand why Honda didn't put their foot down at that time and tell Ron Dennis it can't be done. Oh well, what's done is done and now everyone is feeling the pain including me. I have my doubts about the MP4-30 chassis as being excellent. If you put Merc's current 2015 PU into the MP4-30, I really don't believe it would be any quicker than Williams and certainly not up to Ferrari.

It's REALLY hard to compare the present PU to air!
We have no idea what that PU would have been like. You're making a HUGE assumption that just because the dimensions of that PU are different, it would NOT have been designed with the SAME deficiencies.

For giggles, lets say the problem with the current PU is compressor is too small. If they didn't know better to make the compressor bigger in this iteration, what makes you think it would have been any bigger in the previous PU? You think that when they were designing the compressor they said , we need X boost from the compressor. The size zero compressor will give us X -2 bar...oh lets go with that? Surely someone would have said , that will not work, get me X boost. The more likely scenario is they designed in the X boost but they've come to realize they need X+2 bar or other unforeseen issues that are preventing them from getting that boost.

Honda didn't throw away the designs for the equivalent to the 2016 Merc PU in favour of this years Honda PU just for size 0.

[j.yank]

I watched carefully again the 7th lap of the last race when Button was overtaken by several drivers. It seems to me that in some moments (now always) MH lack corner exit speed which allow the competitor the catch them, then they are running probably at the same speed with them during the whole straight, in the final part they are loosing again starting to stop too earlier, and this is the moment when they are overtaken. Obviously they have enough power to run on the straight which speaks that they have available 160 hp from ERS there, but the lack of more energy is forcing them in some corners not apply MGU-H for turbo boosting. In addition to this I suspect that the earlier stopping is due not because of the low downforce but because they are trying to harvest as much as they can energy through MGU-K which seems is the weakest part in ERS. Singapore will be very different story. I am expecting that the progress that Arai talks about to be seen there in full, just because they will have enough harvested energy to use 160 hp from ERS in all sectors of the lap.

[Facts Only]

I think they sacrificed a lot and you can't forget size 0. I speak with two people on staff at Honda Racing on a regular basis. One being a relative and one a friend who I met at Toyota Racing. We did not work at Honda Racing at the same time. I do know they virtually scrapped their initial design concept they started in Q4 of 2013 when they received the size dimension requirements of the PU for the 4-30 chassis in mid 2014. That is why I don't understand why Honda didn't put their foot down at that time and tell Ron Dennis it can't be done. Oh well, what's done is done and now everyone is feeling the pain including me. I have my doubts about the MP4-30 chassis as being excellent. If you put Merc's current 2015 PU into the MP4-30, I really don't believe it would be any quicker than Williams and certainly not up to Ferrari.

Started in Q4 of 2013? Thats why they are so far behind. Merc started in Q1 of 2011 (and were scheming even before that on single cylinder units) So thats an extra 2 years of work Mercedes HPP did on the engine before going racing compared to Honda (even accounting for their 1 years delayed entry).
Even considering the law of diminishing returns Honda have very little hope of catching Mercedes now in this engine rules phase, HPP have an extra 2 years of development and an extra year of racing experience. Honda talk about innovate achitecture or radical new designs but HPP are so far ahead that they have the time and resource to research and test anything Honda come up with and have probably already considered it already anyway.
Ferrari have done well to make major gains compared to Mercedes but their design time and racing experience was the equal of Mercedes and they are still behind.

[turbof1]

There's a lot of talk about Mclaren chassis and aero, but there's something that I can't understand: how much did they sacrifice their PU in order to get their "size 0 philosophy"? Maybe they created an excellent chassis with wonderful air flow, but Honda had to shrink so much their packaging that now it isn't working properly or as expected.

I would have adopted a less extreme packaging for the first year (both aero and PU wise), but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think they sacrificed a lot and you can't forget size 0. I speak with two people on staff at Honda Racing on a regular basis. One being a relative and one a friend who I met at Toyota Racing. We did not work at Honda Racing at the same time. I do know they virtually scrapped their initial design concept they started in Q4 of 2013 when they received the size dimension requirements of the PU for the 4-30 chassis in mid 2014. That is why I don't understand why Honda didn't put their foot down at that time and tell Ron Dennis it can't be done. Oh well, what's done is done and now everyone is feeling the pain including me. I have my doubts about the MP4-30 chassis as being excellent. If you put Merc's current 2015 PU into the MP4-30, I really don't believe it would be any quicker than Williams and certainly not up to Ferrari.

It's REALLY hard to compare the present PU to air!
We have no idea what that PU would have been like. You're making a HUGE assumption that just because the dimensions of that PU are different, it would NOT have been designed with the SAME deficiencies.

For giggles, lets say the problem with the current PU is compressor is too small. If they didn't know better to make the compressor bigger in this iteration, what makes you think it would have been any bigger in the previous PU? You think that when they were designing the compressor they said , we need X boost from the compressor. The size zero compressor will give us X -2 bar...oh lets go with that? Surely someone would have said , that will not work, get me X boost. The more likely scenario is they designed in the X boost but they've come to realize they need X+2 bar or other unforeseen issues that are preventing them from getting that boost.

Honda didn't throw away the designs for the equivalent to the 2016 Merc PU in favour of this years Honda PU just for size 0.

He's not making any assumptions (despite clearly better informed then any of us around here). He only gave us more information on the matter. He's only voicing his doubts, which is not the same.

The guy publicly explained a few times already he worked for both Honda and Toyota in the past. I don't mind criticism, but stay respective for these boons we get. They are very rare in the seclusive world of F1. A message to everyone btw.

My opinion on the matter is that there are several factors all playing their own role:
-Honda started too late with the project, or alternatively jumped too quick back into F1. Like Facts Only said, they are now locked into a very, very difficult situation where they can't overhaul the complete PU design, in which they kind of rushed into. Honda lacks 3 out of 4 years the other manufacturers had to develop the car. You can't compensate that with innovation or diminishing returns.

-Honda was basically given some chassis dimensions by Mclaren to stuff a PU into. This is quite counter productive because a constructor will always want to built a chassis with the lowest obstruction to airflow and lowest drag footprint, while a manufacturer will to an extent want the opposite to have enough space for cooling and reliable packaging. This is a big issue for seperate companies who aren't working on direct workfloor and R&D levels. Sometimes this is even an issue in companies which does not have its departments work together well enough. Mercedes and Ferrari however have the PU/chassis integration worked out very fine.

-Issues of different company cultures: mclaren is pushy, short term minded. Honda is more tending towards long term. This results in Honda getting rushed by mclaren (maybe this even explains why Honda opted for such a short development period) and Honda not having enough space to develop in the long term (except if the PU rules do change). It'll result in a reinforcement of my second point: the companies will work less in synergy, while more was needed in the first place.