2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Jordan44]

The teams should be fairly even on the peak output of the ICE as it is fairly well known and established tech, the trick is to keep the mguk putting out 160bhp anytime the driver power demand is >0. The key to that your mguh recovery. So agree completely with the above which links back to the early discussions on lean running, the more massflow you can get through the turbine the more you can harvest for mguk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34208407 suggests that Mercedes are making their gains with the ICE, and their ERS system is no better than Ferrari's

[gruntguru]

It just seems to me now a lot of people are thinking the turbo is making enough power to run the compressor and have still over 160HP available from the MGUH to send to the battery or right to the MGUK with the F1 fuel limit.
Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today.

the max sustainable PU power (crankshaft + gu-h/mu-k) is one thing, and will be used at some times in the race. . . .
. . . . . surely a higher gu-h power is always obtainable at the cost of some crankshaft power?

Both true but my comment to each would be
a) Max sustainable power (after allowing for electrical conversion inefficiencies) would be the preferred mode at most times - especially at tracks where the 100 kg race limit is unlikely to be a factor.

b) There would be little point in choosing higher MGUH power to the extent where the cost in crankshaft power was greater. ie max total output would usually be the chosen operating point.

[gruntguru]

That's precisely why combustion is so important, you can have a stochiometric burn but have an overall super lean power stroke with a clever CC. If you can have near stochiometric fuel burn regardless of boost pressure, increasing boost pressure will create more exhaust, and more torque to the crankshaft.

Calculations (admittedly very basic) indicate that the turboshaft surplus does not improve with increased boost unless compressor and or turbine efficiencies exceed 80% (and/or intercooling is reduced in line with increasing boost).

More boost (beyond the level which optimises BMEP via AFR and heat loss) will not increase crankshaft torque.

[mrluke]

PS EDIT contrary to mrluke's post this page and other posts after this .......
(afaik) gg's own figures do not support the view that leaning will produce more recovery power
as the extra turbine power with leaning is nullified by the extra power required by the compressor
(afaik) all this assumes 80% efficiency from the turbine and the compressor
if eg 72% was the average obtained under the changeable engine conditions this (Brayton) recovered power would be half eg 23 kW

That's precisely why combustion is so important, you can have a stochiometric burn but have an overall super lean power stroke with a clever CC. If you can have near stochiometric fuel burn regardless of boost pressure, increasing boost pressure will create more exhaust, and more torque to the crankshaft.

Calculations (admittedly very basic) indicate that the turboshaft surplus does not improve with increased boost unless compressor and or turbine efficiencies exceed 80% (and/or intercooling is reduced in line with increasing boost).

More boost (beyond the level which optimises BMEP via AFR and heat loss) will not increase crankshaft torque.

Happy to be corrected

[godlameroso]

It could in this case, seeing as how we have a MGU-H/K and a battery. So say you don't even gain any direct crankshaft power, you do gain more torque at the MGU-H, which directly translates into more MGU-K/ES power, which means more crankshaft power, albeit indirect. MGU-H controls not only the turbine but compressor as well as they're all on a common shaft. Hence boost pressure is controlled two ways, and I do believe in fact believe Mercedes and Ferrari are at least going for as much boost as possible. I think Honda miscalculated how much boost they can run, just like Ferrari did last year.

[wuzak]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34208407 suggests that Mercedes are making their gains with the ICE, and their ERS system is no better than Ferrari's

That article contains a misconception about how the MGUH and MGUK interact:

Adding the 700bhp Mercedes is reputed to develop from its ICE, to the regulated 160bhp of MGU-K power and the extra 'free' electrical energy from the MGU-H of as much as 30-40bhp, gives a total Mercedes power output in the region of 890-900bhp.

The MGUK is limited to 120kW (160hp) output at all times. So if the Mercedes ICE is making 700hp, the most it can make, with or without the MGUH delivering to the MGUK, is 860hp.

What the unlimited energy flow from MGUH to MGUK allows is the reduction of energy needed to be extracted from the energy store at any one time, meaning that the stored energy lasts longer during a lap.

The energy flow chart from the regulations:

[wuzak]

I was wondering, would it be useful to have a wastegate on each exhaust pipe, allowing one to be opened independent of the other, reducing the back pressure on three cylinders whilst using the other three to drive the turbine?

Obviously, the bank that was feeding the turbine would have to alternate to make the wear even on both sides of the engine. An example of this was in the Ferrari F1-2000, where the throttles on one bank would open up before the other on acceleration, the side which leads being alternated.

[Cold Fussion]

It seems like a reasonable idea for a quali mode atleast. If the compressor takes 40 hp to drive, then your 4MJ ERS will only last around 33 seconds full mgu-k power a lap (while needing ~1.6 MJ or mgu-k harvesting to also drive the turbine for the full lap). So at some point during your qualifying lap you'll need to do some mgu-h harvesting.

[mrluke]

You could use the quali mode at the start of the longest straights and then harvest with the h at the end of the straights.

I would expect that getting up to speed quicker would be a better use of energy than an extra 1-2kph.

[gruntguru]

I wouldn't expect harvesting to be difficult for a quali' lap. Any time you need less than 100% power, the GUK can be driven by the engine surplus up to 120kW max.

Does the per-lap limit on energy from the ES apply for qualifying?

[bergie88]

I wouldn't expect harvesting to be difficult for a quali' lap. Any time you need less than 100% power, the GUK can be driven by the engine surplus up to 120kW max.

Does the per-lap limit on energy from the ES apply for qualifying?

Yes, but only for the MGU-K, energy transfer from and to the MGU-H is unlimited. About the first part of your post, this really sounds like traction control to me in some way. I am almost sure teams are playing around with this option, using traction maps from the tyres or something like that to apply negative torque with the MGU-K when the driver is on full throttle. But this is another discussion, lets go back on topic .

[wuzak]

I wouldn't expect harvesting to be difficult for a quali' lap. Any time you need less than 100% power, the GUK can be driven by the engine surplus up to 120kW max.

Does the per-lap limit on energy from the ES apply for qualifying?

Yes, the energy flows count for qualifying.

I believe that they don't harvest energy through the brakes on a qualifying lap. Perhaps the feel of hydraulic only brakes is superior?

[NL_Fer]

I wouldn't expect harvesting to be difficult for a quali' lap. Any time you need less than 100% power, the GUK can be driven by the engine surplus up to 120kW max.

Does the per-lap limit on energy from the ES apply for qualifying?

Yes, the energy flows count for qualifying.

I believe that they don't harvest energy through the brakes on a qualifying lap. Perhaps the feel of hydraulic only brakes is superior?

I guess it is the quali driving style. A light car, new tyres, braking as late as possible, not tyre saving, no coasting. Not enoughht time to harvest with mgu-k. Brake balance would be more to the front, so less is to recover.

[Blackout]

Many rare and exclusive pics of the 2014 PUs here https://www.as-books.jp/books/sample.php?no=FSH20141218 a pity theire too small

[ferkan]

According to F1 Insider, Honda and Ferrari want open development of engines next season and Merc is not against the idea.