Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[ripper]

On italian media I'm reading that RBR could use Ferrari Monza's spec next year. This sounds strange to me, why a great team like them should accept to use a such old PU? It isn't even the last 2015 spec.

Moreover Renault has 12 tokens to use in this season and will get 25 more to be used until the end of february, I would be really surprised if their 2016 PU turns out to be worst than the italian mid-2015 one.

Or their relationship is so toxic that they have to divorce?

[NoDivergence]

Redbull burned their bridge with Renault. There's no going back now. Undoubtedly, they were banking on getting engines from Mercedes. Now they are stuck getting whatever Ferrari wants to give them.

[lio007]

Even after the exhaust blowing was banned completely, Red Bull never explained how they utilised the specific Renault engine characteristics. Something that would have been fantastic PR for Renault.

As F1-teams are very secretive in terms of technology, I don't wonder why RB or any other team say in public 'Hey, look we have done this in that way to achieve x amount of performance'.
You also have to consider IP.

[Jolle]

Redbull burned their bridge with Renault. There's no going back now. Undoubtedly, they were banking on getting engines from Mercedes. Now they are stuck getting whatever Ferrari wants to give them.

Not the best way to start negotiations.... From RdBulls side

I suspect that Bernie would join in the first few meetings as well, there is a lot riding on this deal for him.

[superdowg316]

Whatever happens, Red Bull Racing will be on the grid in some form in 2016. Bernie wouldn't let a team run by one of the world's biggest brands to not participate because they couldn't get a power unit deal. Even if it meant they had to run Honda power units (which might actually help them develop the power unit more).

[basti313]

I really do not think that there will be another engine supplier in F1 under these rules. Honda just showed, that it is not possible to step in with one year of disadvantage...two or three years with the engine being partially frozen from the beginning?
RedBull will get the Ferrari engine and in two years it will be similar to the works engine due to the freezing of its parts.

Regarding Honda and Renault:
My bet is on both suppliers dropping out of F1 in a few years as soon as the engines are frozen and their disadvantage is obvious. Merc and Ferrari are still developing their PU in steps that look much larger than the steps Honda and Renault are able to do. At the moment it looks rather like the Renault being 15% behind the Ferrari engine in two years than something like 5%, a number with one could try to compete.

[FoxHound]

On italian media I'm reading that RBR could use Ferrari Monza's spec next year. This sounds strange to me, why a great team like them should accept to use a such old PU?

Here's the problem, don't moan and complain what you have is rubbish, when what you have is not something you pay for or built yourself.
Red Bull are in effect making millions having Renault power them.

It is also telling that Renault are quite happy to let Red Bull get powered by something else.

Ferrari nor Mercedes will give Red Bull the latest of anything. Nor should they.
They are competitors, not charities.

The spirit of the sport reasoning falls flat on its face when you see Red Bull have been anything but.

I personally was hoping Ferrari would snub them too, which would've left them quitting or making their own engines.
BMW and Toyota have 2 dormant engine departments and Red bull can easily and very quickly integrate them with their current team.

But of course, they have the money, the options, the time(18 months til 2017 testing) so why don't these guys just get on and do it?

Not because of complete accountability surely?

[ME4ME]

Red Bull are in effect making millions having Renault power them.

Not sure what you're onto here, but Red Bull is losing millions of championship money directly caused by Renaults poor performance and reliability, as well as the money that Red Bull has invested to help Renault, which was all in vain.

[FoxHound]

Red Bull are in effect making millions having Renault power them.

Not sure what you're onto here, but Red Bull is losing millions of championship money directly caused by Renaults poor performance and reliability, as well as the money that Red Bull has invested to help Renault, which was all in vain.

You could easily equate the math.

88 million in sponsorship from infiniti and total alone. Both of those are Renault partners and will evaporate once Renault are gone.
Factor in the free engines which cost other teams 23 million a year...and your gross is around 110 million.

Please demonstrate where Red Bull are losing 110million by a) being 4th last year and b)4th this?

Winners take around 81 million from performance payments, 4th placed team got 47 million.
34 million deficit that is easily compensated by the 110 million figure.

Also, what money has Red Bull invested in Renault that it does not directly lay claim to part owning ip wise?

[GPR-A duplicate2]

BMW and Toyota have 2 dormant engine departments and Red bull can easily and very quickly integrate them with their current team.

But of course, they have the money, the options, the time(18 months til 2017 testing) so why don't these guys just get on and do it?

Not because of complete accountability surely?

You haven't forgotten the rules about creating/developing a new PU for new entrants, have you? Honda is a classic example of what happens if you start late and even more, what happens when you under estimate the work it requires to build a leading PU. I bet, no one, no new PU manufacturer would enter this era of PU with these rules, who has the aspiration to fight for championships.

Mercedes is scared to death, to provide a PU to Red Bull. Not because Red Bull is going to be a bad customer, because that is damn easy for a brand and Management like Mercedes to control. They can bind RB legally in such a tight way that, RB would even need permission to go to loo. But the problem is the fear of being losers again. Not a factory PU, even a customer PU is probably enough for RB to beat the Mercs and they know it very well.

[ME4ME]

You could easily equate the math.

88 million in sponsorship from infiniti and total alone. Both of those are Renault partners and will evaporate once Renault are gone.
Factor in the free engines which cost other teams 23 million a year...and your gross is around 110 million.

Please demonstrate where Red Bull are losing 110million by a) being 4th last year and b)4th this?

Winners take around 81 million from performance payments, 4th placed team got 47 million.
34 million deficit that is easily compensated by the 110 million figure.

Also, what money has Red Bull invested in Renault that it does not directly lay claim to part owning ip wise?

Let's assume you're right and Infiniti and Total will leave Red Bull after this season (which isn't certain, as it's not even certain Renault will be in the sport itself). That would be a huge financial loss for Red Bull, but surely they could find replacements; new lubricant & fuel supplier as an obvious candidate. They could attract new sponsors who previously didn't join because of the associating with Renault, but do want to join if Ferrari is onboard.

You're also handily leaving out the fact that Red Bull are in F1 for brand exposure. That will be a lot less if are where they are: 3rd of 4th in the championship. They need to be winner races and preferably championships for them to justify their investment.

If you say Red Bull should be thankful to Renault for their 2009-2013 time together, than that I can agree with. But 2014-2015 is a whole different story. Renault just isn't good enough for the partnership to make sense anymore.

[FoxHound]

Let's assume you're right and Infiniti and Total will leave Red Bull after this season (which isn't certain, as it's not even certain Renault will be in the sport itself).

Total is the official Renault supplier. Infiniti is a sub brand of Renault Nissan. They WILL go if Renault goes.

They could attract new sponsors who previously didn't join because of the associating with Renault, but do want to join if Ferrari is onboard.

Sure, but again do the math. Red Bull will have to pay for engines now, and Shell will not in any way sponsor Red bull to anything like the tune they do Ferrari if they even have the desire to. Leaving a third party oil sponsor which would know it's public knowledge that their lubricants are not in the actual PU. = less money.
And here's another misgiving...Red Bull are in effect a title sponsor for themselves, any other title sponsor will be secondary and this will have an huge effect on possible sponsorship valuations. Renault Nissan, exposed 2 brands on the same car... it worked when they were winning.

Who is going to be willing to fork out the same as they do now? Especially in light of Red Bull's recent quit threats and public haranguing of Renault. I don't see them getting half as much as they did before.

You're also handily leaving out the fact that Red Bull are in F1 for brand exposure. That will be a lot less if are where they are: 3rd of 4th in the championship. They need to be winner races and preferably championships for them to justify their investment.

Are Ferrari in it for the racing? McLaren? Mercedes? Everyone is in this for exposure, Red Bull do not hold exclusivity on exposure so cannot hold exclusivity on one area of the car hampering them from bigger gains in terms of money earned

But the point you bring up does make it seem like you think Red Bull should win because they can then justify "investments". Again, is this now being held as exclusive to Red bull?

[FoxHound]

You haven't forgotten the rules about creating/developing a new PU for new entrants, have you? Honda is a classic example of what happens if you start late and even more, what happens when you under estimate the work it requires to build a leading PU. I bet, no one, no new PU manufacturer would enter this era of PU with these rules, who has the aspiration to fight for championships.

You've used the Honda example, but you fail to mention the circumstances. Primarily that Honda were pushed into supply for 2015 when 2016 was the original plan from the boys at Minato, Tokyo.
They simply weren't ready. You also forget to mention that the Honda way, is to do everything internally. It's a question of pride for Honda. And they will come good, but need time.

Secondly, there is a parallel to Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren from 2009-2013. Red Bull had built up their CFD and other tools prior to this time, which left other teams floundering in their attempts to catch up.
Other teams were forced to build their own, despite of working wind tunnels(restricted).

This directly parallels what Red bull have now. It cost Mercedes 100s of millions to change Brackley into what it is today, and it took 3 years of hurt before they finally became contenders.
Red Bull have avenues to go alone available, but they don't because I feel they don't want complete accountability.

Mercedes is scared to death, to provide a PU to Red Bull. Not because Red Bull is going to be a bad customer, because that is damn easy for a brand and Management like Mercedes to control. They can bind RB legally in such a tight way that, RB would even need permission to go to loo. But the problem is the fear of being losers again. Not a factory PU, even a customer PU is probably enough for RB to beat the Mercs and they know it very well.

Imagine if Mercedes could call foul because Red Bull refused them access to Red Bull aero between 2010 to 2013?
Mercedes themselves designed, developed and built their own engine. This gives them the right to supply whom they want to. So why should they supply Red Bull?

And I doubt your assessment on Red Bull winning with a customer engine is accurate....Red Bull themselves have said they are behind Mercedes even when the engine is factored into the equation. 3 tenths on chassis alone my friend.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 14323.html

[ME4ME]

Man I barely know where to start!

Total is the official Renault supplier. Infiniti is a sub brand of Renault Nissan. They WILL go if Renault goes.

We don't know that. According to Motorsport.com, Red Bull said they have a contract with Infiniti untill the end of next year. Yes it's possible, maybe even likely they split earlier, but let's not get ahead of our selves. If Infinity can get good exposure out of Red Bull being at the front again, all bet's are off contract wise.

Sure, but again do the math. Red Bull will have to pay for engines now, and Shell will not in any way sponsor Red bull to anything like the tune they do Ferrari if they even have the desire to. Leaving a third party oil sponsor which would know it's public knowledge that their lubricants are not in the actual PU. = less money.
And here's another misgiving...Red Bull are in effect a title sponsor for themselves, any other title sponsor will be secondary and this will have an huge effect on possible sponsorship valuations. Renault Nissan, exposed 2 brands on the same car... it worked when they were winning.

Who is going to be willing to fork out the same as they do now? Especially in light of Red Bull's recent quit threats and public haranguing of Renault. I don't see them getting half as much as they did before.

Again let's not get ahead of ourselves and speculate in who wants to sponsor the team in the future and how much they will pay. I've given you one example and surely there are more. I do not want to get in a math fight with you on this one, cause the numbers are taken from rumors, it's no exact science, anyone can google for the numbers they want and use them to back-up their oppinion, so let's not do that

Are Ferrari in it for the racing? McLaren? Mercedes? Everyone is in this for exposure, Red Bull do not hold exclusivity on exposure so cannot hold exclusivity on one area of the car hampering them from bigger gains in terms of money earned

But the point you bring up does make it seem like you think Red Bull should win because they can then justify "investments". Again, is this now being held as exclusive to Red bull?

I don't know where you're getting this from. I never stated anything about exclusivity. The only thing I pointed out was that Red Bull is in it for exposure. So may others, but that doesn't make my point invalid. Please don't twist things.

Imagine if Mercedes could call foul because Red Bull refused them access to Red Bull aero between 2010 to 2013?

Now you're just getting ridiculous. Red Bull is no supplier (other than minor parts) nor are they allowed to within the regulations. Mercedes on the other end is an engine supplier to several teams in F1.

[basti313]

Is money really playing the big role for RedBull? Mateschitz was very happy that the team was paying it self now for some years, but if he needs to open his wallet to get them winning again he will do it.