Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FoxHound]

It was hypothertical ME4ME.

No way would Red Bull give their silver bullet to a competitor any more than Mercedes would. But out of all I wrote that's all your contesting, then I guess I'll be happy that you cede to the rest of the points.

[FoxHound]

Is money really playing the big role for RedBull? Mateschitz was very happy that the team was paying it self now for some years, but if he needs to open his wallet to get them winning again he will do it.

Buy an engine department, and do it themselves.

[ME4ME]

It was hypothertical ME4ME.

No way would Red Bull give their silver bullet to a competitor any more than Mercedes would. But out of all I wrote that's all your contesting, then I guess I'll be happy that you cede to the rest of the points.

After that wall of text with several quotes and counter argument, you think I concede to your point's?

[GPR-A duplicate2]

You've used the Honda example, but you fail to mention the circumstances. Primarily that Honda were pushed into supply for 2015 when 2016 was the original plan from the boys at Minato, Tokyo.
They simply weren't ready. You also forget to mention that the Honda way, is to do everything internally. It's a question of pride for Honda. And they will come good, but need time.

Does it really matter? Look at Haas, there was a lure and pressure to jump in 2015, but they took a decision to hold back until 2016. I am sure when McLaren realized in late 2011/early 2012 that Mercedes is not going to build a PU that works with McLaren's specification OR that Mercedes is hardly going to provide any greater details, that they used to get, that was when they started looking at their options and went to Honda. No matter what pressure Honda had, they should have taken a better decision than to give into McLaren. It was their collective decision. Irrespective of Honda's way of working, ultimately it is about delivering, which hasn't happened and with opportunities going to get limited and Mercedes/Ferrari continuing to develop their PU equally, it doesn't leave any big opportunity to leap ahead of them.

Secondly, there is a parallel to Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren from 2009-2013. Red Bull had built up their CFD and other tools prior to this time, which left other teams floundering in their attempts to catch up.
Other teams were forced to build their own, despite of working wind tunnels(restricted).

It's about game of compromises. Red Bull took time to build for future and had their struggles from 2005 when Ferrari/McLaren/Renault were fighting each other. Mercedes did the same from 2010 to 2013, go along a plan and put their money for 2014. May be McLaren and Honda have similar plans, but recent frustrations and blame game doesn't really make one believe it that way. Because, when you REALLY have long term plan, the frustrations of short term should be well understood and everyone in either organizations understand that the road is going to be long and hard. Lack of such camaraderie clearly shows they expected to be successful off the block.

Red Bull have avenues to go alone available, but they don't because I feel they don't want complete accountability.

It was the same with McLaren, isn't it? Red Bull doesn't have road car program, but McLaren has. They build an entire car, including the engines. Between McLaren and Red Bull if someone is best equipped to do this, it is McLaren and not Red Bull.

Imagine if Mercedes could call foul because Red Bull refused them access to Red Bull aero between 2010 to 2013?
Mercedes themselves designed, developed and built their own engine. This gives them the right to supply whom they want to. So why should they supply Red Bull?

There is no business like selling Aero ideas by putting up a stall. May be if that would have been a business that fetches similar money to selling a PU, then probably Red Bull would have been the Mercedes of Aero in selling the stuff. Absolutely, Mercedes have the right to choose their customers.

And I doubt your assessment on Red Bull winning with a customer engine is accurate....Red Bull themselves have said they are behind Mercedes even when the engine is factored into the equation. 3 tenths on chassis alone my friend.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 14323.html

I am not denying the current state of affairs. I am only using the past achievements of Red Bull, when they had close to similar PU and how they performed. Today, they are scratching their a**** hard. Ask yourselves, if they get a class leading PU, wouldn't they repeat what they did during 2010-13? That would be my answer.

I have nothing against Mercedes and in fact rooted for them to come good when they were struggling. But once you become leader, you also have the responsibility to serve the sport. If they had provided PU and still beaten RB, then they would be one of the greatest teams of all time. But that is not the case and if it is a reward to the astonishing job they have done on their PU, that they keep winning championships without any competition and the sports suffering, turning fans away, it just feels so ironic.

[FoxHound]

Does it really matter? Look at Haas, there was a lure and pressure to jump in 2015, but they took a decision to hold back until 2016.

It sure does when you go make judgements based premature development cycles.
As for Honda's way of working, my point here is that Red Bull would not be hampered by this traditional methodology.

It's about game of compromises. Red Bull took time to build for future and had their struggles from 2005 when Ferrari/McLaren/Renault were fighting each other. Mercedes did the same from 2010 to 2013, go along a plan and put their money for 2014. May be McLaren and Honda have similar plans, but recent frustrations and blame game doesn't really make one believe it that way. Because, when you REALLY have long term plan, the frustrations of short term should be well understood and everyone in either organizations understand that the road is going to be long and hard. Lack of such camaraderie clearly shows they expected to be successful off the block

Absolutley, I'm going to plus 1 you just for this paragraph alone.

I am only using the past achievements of Red Bull, when they had close to similar PU and how they performed. Today, they are scratching their a**** hard. Ask yourselves, if they get a class leading PU, wouldn't they repeat what they did during 2010-13? That would be my answer.

I have nothing against Mercedes and in fact rooted for them to come good when they were struggling. But once you become leader, you also have the responsibility to serve the sport. If they had provided PU and still beaten RB, then they would be one of the greatest teams of all time. But that is not the case and if it is a reward to the astonishing job they have done on their PU, that they keep winning championships without any competition and the sports suffering, turning fans away, it just feels so ironic.

Red Bull are for the most part down because of Renault. But, not in entirety. Chassis and aero losses make them less of the team than they used to be, Newey too is less hands on as he used to be, and prodromou is now a McLaren employee.
In the history of the sport, no winning team has ever willingly shared it's advantage with another. Ever.
Mercedes share their engine with 3 other teams.

I get nobody wants domination, especially as we see now. But, Ferrari are coming and Renault appear to be working on something decent for next year. It wont be Benz beating by any means, but who knows....it could be better than a Ferrari customer V8. And if it is, who will Red Bull blame?

There will always be the get out clause of blaming suppliers for them. Which is why I have said and keep saying, build your own if you want it done right.

[Jolle]

Is money really playing the big role for RedBull? Mateschitz was very happy that the team was paying it self now for some years, but if he needs to open his wallet to get them winning again he will do it.

Buy an engine department, and do it themselves.

I don't see redbull buying an engine department. It has almost no extra marketing value, maybe even less. For instance: with Renault, renault uses the F1 car for their marketing.

And value wise, a f1 team is worth money because of their license and corresponding income from the TV rights. An engine company has no extra value. So buying one, I invest in a F1 PU, has no added value.

One possible way would be like McLaren did it in the early eighties. Sponsor/co-owner TAG paid Porsche for the (co) development and manufacturing of the TAG Turbo engines.

[Cold Fussion]

The only way an engine department makes sense for Red Bull is if they plan to turn Red Bull Technology into a car company.

[SiLo]

The only way an engine department makes sense for Red Bull is if they plan to turn Red Bull Technology into a car company.

At which point they could start building off road cars, which then turns into a one=make off road extreme racing championship hosted and funded by them.

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal!

[alexx_88]

Only that it would be hundreds of times cheaper to go to an off-road car manufacturer and ask them to co-found and co-fund the venture.

It's very hard to find the financial reasoning for a drinks company to spend probably close to a billion euros on acquiring an engine department that serves no other purpose other than powering some F1 cars. There's also the question of which one to buy. The ones that are truly worth it and have the necessary expertise and connections are OEM's. Maybe enter as a partnership with VAG/Porsche, but that doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon.

I think there's an inherent problem with this formula. You have a huge cost going towards PU research, but the PU manufacturer doesn't get a lot of brand awareness out of doing so. Imagine Red Bull Racing Porsche or Red Bull Racing VW. If they win, the average Joe will be served a picture of a car in Red Bull livery with 'Porsche' written somewhere on the side. The headlines will be about Red Bull, the articles will be about them and the PU will only get a couple of mentions. What's the incentive of coming in only as a PU supplier? None. And, if you're a PU manufacturer from Europe contemplating coming in, why not do it properly and have your own team - see Renault?

[FoxHound]

Unfortunately, and as much as it grates with Red Bull, engines form part of the F1 racing series.

They also form part of the car. Upon entering F1 it has been the case, and upon winning 4 straight double titles too.
So if they choose to have this part of the car supplied, they should accept that they cannot guarantee the best or a competitive engine.
It's that simple.

Therefore, an energy drinks company with multiple billion dollar profits each year should if they haven't already, have thought of going solo.
Cosworth, BMW, Toyota and PURE (stretching on this one...) all have dormant facilities that can be leased or purchased outright over a period of time.

Thing is, I suspect Red Bull worry they may end of with a piece of --- at the end of it. Accountability.

Why do that when you can blame a supplier if it ain't competitive?

[alexx_88]

I don't think they'd have become a top class racing team with state of the art technology and simulation tools if they'd be afraid to fail. To be honest, I don't blame them for wanting to part with Renault and a lot of their grief regarding their supplier is understandable. Renault had the most expensive engines in 2014, so it's basically like paying for a new Mercedes car, but only getting an old Fiat Punto instead. We also don't know what Renault's attitude was when confronted about the problems.

From the options you listed, probably just Cosworth is feasible. Toyota's and BMW's engine divisions are already involved in other motorsport activities, so you can't really buy them without spending ridiculous amounts of money, even if you have it. Instead of spending hundreds of millions and maybe get more F1 exposure, there are countless other, more efficient ways to get the same marketing value at a fraction of the cost. Even if you buy Cosworth, you'll still need to revamp it significantly in order to compete with Mercedes and Ferrari, so pour in more money, more time. Not worth it imo.

[FoxHound]

I don't think they'd have become a top class racing team with state of the art technology and simulation tools if they'd be afraid to fail.

So why not take the risk? If they have succeeded in 2 of 3 disciplines, why not go for 3?

You mention expensive. You do realise this is factually incorrect in terms of Red Bull running 2 teams in 2 different countries, right? Red Bull apparently, is close to not making a loss. Meaning Red Bull GmbH can spend 700 million a year running Torro Rosso and throw spacemen out of balloons.

Torro Rosso cost them money, I'd guess probably around 70 million plus a year. That figure could be higher but I'll take bets it won't be lower. Unless there is a proactive partsharing programme going down at Red Bull tech.... but hey...they say they dont do that... .

So my view here is that you sell Torro Rosso if the costs of building your own engines are exorbitant. Simple.

Oh, and if Toyota and BMW were ever to be taken over by Red Bull...there would still be need for sizeable investments.
It's F1.
But I think we'd be talking in the region of around 450 million with a V6 Turbo at the end of it. Speaking to a friend, it has also been pointed out to me that Mahle and Ricardo engineering are highend producers of exotic engines.
Some very recently former MB HPE staff actually work there.

There are a few more similar to those that are even within 100 miles of Milton Keynes. It is not as hard as has been suggested, and a takeover of a smaller company would be way less expensive and far more wieldy to integrate into Red Bull's set up. They have after all spent over 1.4 billion on F1 over the last decade.

They already have Mario Illien. But something, and it aint the cost per se....is worrying Red Bull from going alone.
Maybe if they invest it means they can't play the F1 exit card...(has worked very well for them).
Maybe if they invest there is a possibility Renault will beat them...(Embarrassment).
Maybe if they invest there will no excuse for not winning...(accountability).

From a political point of view, and nobody can deny that this team is very adept at politicking, it makes zero sense for Red Bull to make their own engines. There needs to be a fall guy at this team.
Don't believe me?

Cosworth were blamed for a host of problems, castigated as not first rate and ditched for Ferrari in 2006.
Ferrari were panned for not giving enough information on dimensions and other criteria, and were ditched for Renault.
And Renault...well when they were winning...Red Bull still liked to point the finger.
Is there a pattern emerging? It seems an explicit and thought out strategy to me.

[alexx_88]

You mention expensive. You do realise this is factually incorrect in terms of Red Bull running 2 teams in 2 different countries, right? Red Bull apparently, is close to not making a loss. Meaning Red Bull GmbH can spend 700 million a year running Torro Rosso and throw spacemen out of balloons.

Torro Rosso cost them money, I'd guess probably around 70 million plus a year. That figure could be higher but I'll take bets it won't be lower. Unless there is a proactive partsharing programme going down at Red Bull tech.... but hey...they say they dont do that... .

But I think we'd be talking in the region of around 450 million with a V6 Turbo at the end of it. Speaking to a friend, it has also been pointed out to me that Mahle and Ricardo engineering are highend producers of exotic engines.
Some very recently former MB HPE staff actually work there.

There are a few more similar to those that are even within 100 miles of Milton Keynes. It is not as hard as has been suggested, and a takeover of a smaller company would be way less expensive and far more wieldy to integrate into Red Bull's set up. They have after all spent over 1.4 billion on F1 over the last decade.

Running Torro Rosso is not expensive, you said so yourself as they are very close to not making a loss. Torro Ross brings in F1 prize money as well, sponsorship etc and that's without factoring the marketing value of having the Red Bull name displayed on 4 cars in F1. What would developing their own engine program bring? Nothing but headaches.

Financial statements for the German manufacturer's F1 engine manufacturing division in Northamptonshire show that in 2013 it spent £133.9m which is nearly double the budget it had just three years earlier. Its costs alone now come to nearly double those of F1's lowest-spenders Caterham.

Regarding budget, it's very hard to gauge, but Mercedes is reported to have spent £139m on engine development for 2013, alone. Factor in 2012 and 2014 and you get a massive number (~540 million euros). And that doesn't even factor in the existing facilities that were already at Brixworth. Start from 0 and God knows how much you need to add to that - buying the company, buying new equipment, recruiting.

You can't just add how much they spent over the last decade and use that as an argument to go into a venture that has no chance of ever becoming profitable as a whole. If they'll be required to spend 600 million euros to develop an engine which might bring them to the top, then it's simply not worth it for Red Bull as a company. If you were to sell this to Mateschitz, what would you use as an argument?

[FoxHound]

Running Torro Rosso is not expensive, you said so yourself as they are very close to not making a loss. Torro Ross brings in F1 prize money as well, sponsorship etc and that's without factoring the marketing value of having the Red Bull name displayed on 4 cars in F1. What would developing their own engine program bring? Nothing but headaches.

Red Bull are close to not losing money on RBR for the first time, although I cannot prove this as I have no access to the accounts, so I'm going off of Red Bull hot air publications. Risky!

STR is a different matter entirely, and it does not have the income generated by RBR. They have a smaller budget, but at 143 million(crash.net) for the year it's still big... but they are also in the same boat as the struggling teams around them....Sauber, Force India, Lotus.
Red Bull have to fill that void.

As for the engines. Mercedes recoup 70 million dollars a year from customers.
Their total spend on development was also inclusive of a production car road engine. which has seen applications on 2 different Mercedes models. The 2.0 litre 4 Turbo as used in the A45 and the 4 litre "hot vee"(basically 2 of the 4 cylinder a class engines conjoined) V8. And critically, they continue to develop these engines.
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/engineering ... tion=20l4c

If Mercedes had anything like the SPEND figure for their net LOSS figure, you can bet Daimler would be asking questions as to why the havent won every race since 2014..

What I got was that Mercedes spent 133.9 million in 2014 for it's engine division at MB HPP. Having sourced their engine to McLaren, Force India and Williams, they recoup 60 million. Meaning 73 million Net loss and you get your own engines free.
But to be pedantic, Red bull would need to pay for a customer engine....20 million say, so they would be exposed to a 50 million net loss and control their own destiny. They could even develop engines on the side for production companies as MB HPP are doing for the mothership in Stuttgart.

And in one fell(slo-mo) swoop the cost argument is erased.

[alexx_88]

You're making a couple of mistakes:
1. Mercedes AMG HPP has no involvement outside F1 (proof: http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/v/about_us/what_we_do/)
2. Their £139m is spent in 2013 when they were not selling the PU to anyone.
3. You're looking at least at 2-year development cycle (if you're lucky) before you can sell anything to anyone. Count it as 3 years as you'll still need to prove it on the track before anyone spends a dime. That's easily 2 x £139m, but that's on the low-side. Mercedes AMG HPP have been developing powertrains for years, had all the equipment, the know-how and the IP. That doesn't come easily and, more importantly, doesn't come cheap.
4. In the best case, at the end of all this, if they somehow manage to produce a PU that's better than Merc's, they are left with a £40-50m loss each year, compounded on top of the initial >£300m investment.

So, to rewind everything, you want a company that produces soft drinks to become an engine manufacturer and lose hundreds of millions of euros with the sole purpose of winning in F1? The same company that said that they are solely driven by the marketing value of F1?

Sorry, I'd really like to see stronger opponents for Mercedes as well, but this formula which rests a lot on PU manufacturers, but in a context where they are not as visible as the teams they power, is only set to be attractive to big car companies. What I could see happening is VW/Porsche coming in with Redbull as a partner and name the team Redbull VW. I think using the VW brand (rather than Audi or Porsche) would allow them to create some clever marketing campaigns if they do beat Mercedes.