Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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mikep99 wrote:How do we know ......... How do we know....... Are you for real? How do we know your not a martian ? Please stop all this crap and just admit they and GUILTY as sin & a big bunch of lying looses.
Ferrari will win a DESERVED WCC this year but McLaren WILL win a TAINTED WDC this year.

How Do I Know ………… How Do I Know…………. THE INDEFUTABLE EVIDENCE
Respectfully Mike, with only a few posts on here your contributions are consistently just flaming posts.

This is a technical forum - either say your point and back them up somehow - trying to keep on-going personal and pointless posts out of it - or find somewhere else to post.

You've backed up nothing you've said with evidence from a technical, legal or logic point of view. Your opinions are totally fine - just give us some reason to read your posts please.

Rob W
Last edited by Rob W on 15 Sep 2007, 09:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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Tom wrote:....Almost as if Fernando Alonso would not know the name of the chief designer of his own team, while members of this forum, mear fans, could recognised the name.

....It just fits together too well, you could say its tailor made to go with Ferrari's complaints and the court case.
I agree completely.

Importantly - I very much doubt Alonso and De la Rosa would be speaking in English about it since they're both Spanish. Translating and paraphrasing communications can massively change the true tone of the exchange.

Rob W

mikep99
mikep99
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Joined: 04 May 2007, 04:30

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Rob W wrote:
mikep99 wrote:How do we know ......... How do we know....... Are you for real? How do we know your not a martian ? Please stop all this crap and just admit they and GUILTY as sin & a big bunch of lying looses.
Ferrari will win a DESERVED WCC this year but McLaren WILL win a TAINTED WDC this year.

How Do I Know ………… How Do I Know…………. THE INDEFUTABLE EVIDENCE
Respectfully Mike, with only a few posts on here your contributions are consistently just flaming posts.

This is a technical forum - either say your point and back them up somehow - trying to keep on-going personal and pointless posts out of it - or find somewhere else to post.

You've backed up nothing you've said with evidence from a technical, legal or logic point of view. Your opinions are totally fine - just give us some reason to read your posts please.

Rob W
OK Mr HOW DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That really sounds like real evidence from a technical, legal or logical point to me. Just ready your HOW DO YOU KNOW post again and tell me why anyone should ready any of your posts.
You will get over it mate.

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

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mikep99 wrote:OK Mr HOW DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That really sounds like real evidence from a technical, legal or logical point to me. Just ready your HOW DO YOU KNOW post again and tell me why anyone should ready any of your posts.
You will get over it mate.
Thanks for demonstrating my first point. :roll:

Rob W

mikep99
mikep99
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Joined: 04 May 2007, 04:30

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Rob W wrote:
mikep99 wrote:OK Mr HOW DO YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!! That really sounds like real evidence from a technical, legal or logical point to me. Just ready your HOW DO YOU KNOW post again and tell me why anyone should ready any of your posts.
You will get over it mate.
Thanks for demonstrating my first point. :roll:

Rob W
And your HOW DO WE KNOW post was a classic mate.
It reminds me of the IF this happend & IF that happend posts you read so offen.
You know the punch line don't you................ And if my Aunty had balls she would be my Uncle.

Lighten up mate. :wink: :wink:

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Rob W wrote:Importantly - I very much doubt Alonso and De la Rosa would be speaking in English about it since they're both Spanish. Translating and paraphrasing communications can massively change the true tone of the exchange.
Um, actually I've seen interviews with both Pedro and Fernando on TV, and they both seemed to speak English quite well. And the two accused individuals, Coughlan and Stepney, are both native English speakers. So what's unusual about an email in English?
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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If this is a "technical forum" (heaven forbids! :)) then why don't we concentrate on the post-mortem?

The more I look what I wrote about the consequences, the more smart I feel... :lol: This is what I wrote elsewhere:

"1. Why allow the drivers to run in a car that is, as I said before, tainted? McLaren is guilty of copying, they shouldn't race in a copied car. There is no coherence here, maybe there is clemency toward Alonso and the "money-maker" of Hamilton.

2. Is there a slight possibility that all this "coup" was a master play by Ferrari? I mean, that Stepney did this on instructions from Ferrari? I still do not understand why, oh, why, if you are stealing secrets from your employer, you abuse of your luck and THEN decide to sabotage the car... that's for me the hard-to-swallow bite.

Of course, I live in Colombia, so I'm paranoid even about my paranoia, but... there is a lesson for Machiaveli here.

IF this happened by chance, then you could "make it happen" next time: to wipe your opponents all you have to do is to "sacrifice" an employee, like Stepney, to do what Stepney did, and bribe him accordingly.

My predictions, encouraged by the relative accuracy of earlier guesses:

a. The 100 million penalty will be reduced on appeal. It's too high, if you ask me. What does this amount represent? Who was damaged? Who calculated the amount of damage?

b. McLaren will take this to civil courts, if only to drop the lawsuit for the "privilege" of running for WCC in 2008. There is a slight possibility that the "civil" ruling favor them. In that case, I can hardly imagine the amount McLaren can ask as punitive damages. This is a Damocles's sword hanging over FIA and a dream come true for lawyers in both sides.

c. IF McLaren is able to appeal and win, then the WCC could be returned to them, as the races will be run anyway. That's another door left ajar.

d. EVERYBODY will know who is the "true" champion, even if the points are not awarded. This will make 2008 an akward year. This is also a bad political decission for FIA: the gossip and comments about the ruling will last for more than a year. They could have stripped McLaren from the championship in 2007, period. Instead, they decided to "force" them to compete for peanuts (actually, paying heavily for the privilege). That's a poor ruling... it will keep emotions high and, unless Ferrari beat them, will keep people making sarcastic comments until 2009. Poor, poor ruling. It's like sending your kids to their room for a year: this is going to be a year of hell for you. You want to punish the kids, not to become their perpetual police.

e. I think this can cost Max Mosley the position he holds: I don't think the british F1 contingent is going to say OK, let's forget about this thing. I predict a fierce competition for FIA presidency very soon."

C'mon, attack the post, not the poster.
Ciro

Torso
Torso
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Joined: 09 Apr 2007, 12:38

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1 thing is for sure

McLaren and their drivers may TAKE the trophys, but they sure as h*ll didn`t EARN them.

CHEATERS and THIEVS are only remembered as that what-ever they try to imagie themselves.

McLaren should be banned from competing for the rest of 2007 AND the entire 2008 season! And Hamilton should try winning in a package that wasn`t helped from criminal venture.

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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Ciro, (referring to you but attacking the post :wink: )

1. The drivers were not sanctioned because they were promised immunity. Thats is not necessarily the right thing to do, but in F1 as in the "real word" it's not an uncommon thing for prosecutors to do "business" with defendants, in order to get to the bottom of things. You can find the official comment on this in article 9.3 of the full decision.

2. The theory of inveiglement is pretty weak. McLaren had plenty of opportunities in various levels of personnel (management, engineers, drivers, mechanics) to put an end to even just the risk of getting involved in this mess. Instead of installing a firewall, letting Coughlan see Stepney "to tell him to let go", telling him to get rid of pictures and documents and so on, instead of choosing measures of ignorance, all they had to do was to be more actively involved and report to Ferrari and the FIA, and even to some journalists. It might not have been pretty, but it would surely be less expensive than 100M$ and the WCC.
I suggest you also read the team bosses comments on this in the PC from Spa.

As for your perdictions:
a. Dennis has already said he is seriously thinking not to appeal "for the sake of F1" (and mind me if I find it pretty funny). see here.

d. NOBODY will know who is the "true" champion. The championship is so distorted now, that it's impossible to tell. They may as well give it to BMW.

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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Also regarding 'a':
Mad Max wrote:That 100 million dollars is less than the difference between his budget and that of Frank Williams, Renault and several other teams," Mosley told reporters in the Spa-Francorchamps paddock.

So it is a very minor punishment as such. Half of it roughly will go to the other teams, the other half, if the World Council agree with me, we are going to distribute to our ASN's (National Sporting Authorities) worldwide to bring on our young drivers. Anything less than that will have no effect at all.

All you are doing is bringing his budget down to the level of some of the other top teams in the paddock. It is absurd to say it is unfair or disproportionate.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Well, you have some reason. Nobody argues against the "witness program" effects: they are logical. There are some opinions that take that further: they say that Alonso did it on purpose, which sounds ridiculous.

On the other hand, Dennis can put a good face, but regarding McLaren income, not turnaround, you can see that the size of the penalty, following "Pitp*ss" goes like that:

"According to the most recent company accounts, up to the end of 2005, the McLaren Group only had £2.5m (around $5m) in cash in the bank and at hand – still nowhere near enough to cover the fine. The team is owned 40% by Mercedes-Benz, 30% by the Bahraini government investment vehicle Mumtalakat Holdings, and 15% each by TAG Group Holdings and team principal Ron Dennis.

McLaren Racing, the group company that manages the F1 team, turned over £113.3m in 2005, making a profit after tax of £4.9m."


Besides, here is the poison pill:

"Ahead of the 2008 season the Woking team's car will be examined by independent experts."

Experts which, of course, will not leak information about the car to anybody, surely, as is normal in F1. This means McLaren participation in 2008, as everybody knows, is conditioned to FIA's scrutiny of the new car.
Ciro

Seas
Seas
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Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 03:59
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mikep99 wrote:Seeing that McLaren are guilty. They should be made to change the Livery on the car for the last few races, to honour there engineering partners.
this one is good.
Honestly, I was not surprised by FIA decision. They punished McLaren, but in the way they didn't destroy championship. What surprise me is why Ron didn't send Alonso strait to hell. The boy is pain in the ass, from day one. He want privileged status in team? OK, F**K OFF. If I am in Ron place, I will keep him in contract, but like spare driver, so he cant go to any other team. simply, I wil not relise him from his contract, but he will not have a drive in my team!!!!!!! :twisted: :oops:
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Steven
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OK I am back and this discussion is back to facts :!:
mikep99 wrote:Seeing that McLaren are guilty. They should be made to change the Livery on the car for the last few races, to honour there engineering partners.
It was never proven that McLaren have designed their car based on the Ferrari documents that Coughlan has in his possession at his home.

In regards to this, please Ferrari fanboys stop arguing that McLaren are cheaters and that Hamilton or Alonso would not earn the title. They drive with what they have. If you would only look from an impartial point of view you might see that banning McLaren cars for 2 years would harm the sport even more than what Mosley and the FIA are pulling off now.
Seas wrote:Honestly, I was not surprised by FIA decision. They punished McLaren, but in the way they didn't destroy championship. What surprise me is why Ron didn't send Alonso strait to hell. The boy is pain in the ass, from day one. He want privileged status in team? OK, F**K OFF. If I am in Ron place, I will keep him in contract, but like spare driver, so he cant go to any other team. simply, I wil not relise him from his contract, but he will not have a drive in my team!!!!!!!
You must be joking. Alonso signed a contract to be a primary McLaren race driver. There is also a bit more of interest to Ron than just personal issues, the Mercedes shareholders for example who do not dislike 2 of their own drivers fighting for the championship.

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naknak_56
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While Mclaren may not have designed their car based on the Ferrari documents I believe it was proven that they did use some information (as related to in the emails ) so I believe that proves that they are cheaters.(although I dont beleive that Ron knew anything about it judging buy his response to Max's accusations)

Now im not agreeing on that point i do believe that the drivers should be allowed to continue as they would have killed what creditability F1 has left.

I also notice that lots of the Mclaren fanboys see to think that stealing the intellectual property of another company is perfectly acceptable as others have done it before and gotten away with it , but lets put it this way people get away with robbing , murder etc all the time, but because people get away with these crimes does that make it ok to commit these crimes?? I dont think your local police force would accept this as a valid defense.
If you can read this your connection is faster than 56k

mikep99
mikep99
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Joined: 04 May 2007, 04:30

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Tomba wrote:OK I am back and this discussion is back to facts :!:
mikep99 wrote:Seeing that McLaren are guilty. They should be made to change the Livery on the car for the last few races, to honour there engineering partners.
It was never proven that McLaren have designed their car based on the Ferrari documents that Coughlan has in his possession at his home.

In regards to this, please Ferrari fanboys stop arguing that McLaren are cheaters and that Hamilton or Alonso would not earn the title. They drive with what they have. If you would only look from an impartial point of view you might see that banning McLaren cars for 2 years would harm the sport even more than what Mosley and the FIA are pulling off now.
Seas wrote:Honestly, I was not surprised by FIA decision. They punished McLaren, but in the way they didn't destroy championship. What surprise me is why Ron didn't send Alonso strait to hell. The boy is pain in the ass, from day one. He want privileged status in team? OK, F**K OFF. If I am in Ron place, I will keep him in contract, but like spare driver, so he cant go to any other team. simply, I wil not relise him from his contract, but he will not have a drive in my team!!!!!!!
You must be joking. Alonso signed a contract to be a primary McLaren race driver. There is also a bit more of interest to Ron than just personal issues, the Mercedes shareholders for example who do not dislike 2 of their own drivers fighting for the championship.
You’re so wise Maca Boy. The only ones that are harming the sport are McLaren, Mosley and the FIA are just doing what is blatantly obvious with all the proof that is available - JUSTICE. They were caught, & proven GUILTY no IF or Buts.
F1 is measured in millimetres & milliseconds & is the pinnacle or engineering. Don’t try telling me that with all the information McLaren had at there disposal they could not use any of it to there benefit. Like the old saying goes – two heads are better than one. McLaren had two engineering teams working on there cars in effect.
Your right the drivers drive with what they have. – The car designed as per above.