Formula One's Engine Crisis

[i70q7m7ghw]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is the development cap. The current token system punishes engine manufacturers that have fallen behind. Honda for example, need more tokens than there are available, and that's just to catch up! The whole engine freeze and token system is crippling the sport. The only reason teams are allowed to use the tokens during the season this year is because of a loophole in the regulations. Imagine if that loophole hadn't existed, Honda would probably be finishing behind the Manor GP cars...

IMO the first step that needs to be taken is to tear up the engine freeze and token system. Allow open engine development throughout the season until all manufacturers catch up to each other and reach a point of diminishing returns. Keep the cap on the number of engines per season, this will stop silly things like teams brining a new engine for every session of a weekend. If a team did want to bring a new spec engine over and above their season's allocation, they could do so but obviously take a penalty. And finally, put a cap on the cost of customer engines to prevent the manufacturers passing the development costs on to their customers.

[Tim.Wright]

You only have to look at the performance steps that Mercedes have made with each update to recognise that if they weren't restricted by the tokens, they would be much much further ahead. The in season token system works quite well in managing costs and keeps things interesting from a viewer point of view as well. I'm enjoying seeing the engine updates again after all the years of frozen designs. I would like to see the freezing removed, but the token systems kept for that very reason.

From what I have seen in previous eras of the sport, the point of diminishing returns typically takes 5-10 years to stabilise. Compare this to the attention span of a typical fan/arm-chair official which seems to be roughly 2 weeks and it's pretty obvious that opening everything up is not an option...

[Jolle]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is the development cap. The current token system punishes engine manufacturers that have fallen behind. Honda for example, need more tokens than there are available, and that's just to catch up! The whole engine freeze and token system is crippling the sport. The only reason teams are allowed to use the tokens during the season this year is because of a loophole in the regulations. Imagine if that loophole hadn't existed, Honda would probably be finishing behind the Manor GP cars...

IMO the first step that needs to be taken is to tear up the engine freeze and token system. Allow open engine development throughout the season until all manufacturers catch up to each other and reach a point of diminishing returns. Keep the cap on the number of engines per season, this will stop silly things like teams brining a new engine for every session of a weekend. If a team did want to bring a new spec engine over and above their season's allocation, they could do so but obviously take a penalty. And finally, put a cap on the cost of customer engines to prevent the manufacturers passing the development costs on to their customers.

First off, the token system is developed with the manufactures. second, you build a car according to a formula, hence the name, formula one. Honda and Renault knew the formula and took too many risks. So in the first place, it's their wrongdoing, not the token system. What we've seen so far, Honda has taken a very risky path (with embedded compressors and tiny MGH-K units) and Renault put stuff on the PU without proper testing it.
If you put your driver in the car backwards, you can't complain that the track goes the wrong way round.

McLaren has been on a slope for a long time now, since 2012. Losing sponsors, trying to develop new cars every year, one even more extreme then the other and prob had a hand in the extreme designed PU from Honda (going for the whole size zero).

Ferrari and Mercedes have good and reliable PU's. Renault didn't even use all their tokes, so there is still development space there (but pressure from RBR just made thing very worse). If VAG is going to enter, BMW isn't far behind and who knows, Fiat might brand the HAAS team into a Chrysler, maybe even GM wants to enter then... who knows...

It's not an engine crisis, McLaren is in crisis.

[i70q7m7ghw]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is the development cap. The current token system punishes engine manufacturers that have fallen behind. Honda for example, need more tokens than there are available, and that's just to catch up! The whole engine freeze and token system is crippling the sport. The only reason teams are allowed to use the tokens during the season this year is because of a loophole in the regulations. Imagine if that loophole hadn't existed, Honda would probably be finishing behind the Manor GP cars...

IMO the first step that needs to be taken is to tear up the engine freeze and token system. Allow open engine development throughout the season until all manufacturers catch up to each other and reach a point of diminishing returns. Keep the cap on the number of engines per season, this will stop silly things like teams brining a new engine for every session of a weekend. If a team did want to bring a new spec engine over and above their season's allocation, they could do so but obviously take a penalty. And finally, put a cap on the cost of customer engines to prevent the manufacturers passing the development costs on to their customers.

First off, the token system is developed with the manufactures. second, you build a car according to a formula, hence the name, formula one. Honda and Renault knew the formula and took too many risks. So in the first place, it's their wrongdoing, not the token system. What we've seen so far, Honda has taken a very risky path (with embedded compressors and tiny MGH-K units) and Renault put stuff on the PU without proper testing it.
If you put your driver in the car backwards, you can't complain that the track goes the wrong way round.

Yes, but it's possible the formula is wrong. I like the new engines, I think it was right direction for the sport, but I think the regulations are far too restrictive. The engine freeze made sense during the V8 era when the engines were well developed and quite level. For me, it doesn't make sense to impose an engine freeze so early in the development of these new engines. What you are saying is Honda made a mistake, and now they will never get to be competitive because of that 1 mistake? The same is true of Renault, they took the wrong direction, and now it could take seasons for them to ever catch up to the Merc/Ferrari.

Put McLaren Honda to one side for a moment, look at what is happening to Renault. They are on the brink of pulling out of the sport full stop, and if Ferrari won't agree an engine deal with Red Bull, they could leave the sport too. Is that not a crisis?

[FoxHound]

How does that conflict with diminishing returns?


There's not a great deal of change from race to race, which is in line with Alonso's comments (and mine).

What are you putting the change, or lack thereof down to?

[Winterapfel]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is...

For me the biggest issue is that we can't see what is happening and being developed.

With the (extreme) aero development, we had new vanes, wings every race. Thing we could actually see and discuss, items that teams could spy on and copy.

With the current (engine) regulations, when can only speculate, we do not see the actual development, only track time result. On top of that, we have the understanding of the tire, which is tricky for even the best teams.

I propose to help the weaker engine teams and involving the fans by making the engine and engine updates somehow visible, a first thought would be for (part of) the info that the teams provide to FIA on updates, including pictures of the new parts to make public.
This of course still leaves the large dependence on software, but it's a start..

I'm dying to see more of the development that is going on and I'm frustrated about only being able to speculate...

[i70q7m7ghw]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is...

For me the biggest issue is that we can't see what is happening and being developed.

Well, one advantage of the token system is we get to hear about updates and what area of the engine they are for. I don't think you can really ask for more than that, you're never going to actually see the engine components and how they work if the manufacturers can help it.

For me, the tokens system is like everyone driving around on the pit lane speed limiter, nobody can overtake because everyone is being held at the same speed. It could be that Renault have the potential to out develop Mercedes and catch up, but they aren't allowed to because they have a limit on the development they can do in a season.

[Facts Only]

For me the biggest problem with the current regulations is...

For me the biggest issue is that we can't see what is happening and being developed.

Well, one advantage of the token system is we get to hear about updates and what area of the engine they are for. I don't think you can really ask for more than that, you're never going to actually see the engine components and how they work if the manufacturers can help it.

For me, the tokens system is like everyone driving around on the pit lane speed limiter, nobody can overtake because everyone is being held at the same speed. It could be that Renault have the potential to out develop Mercedes and catch up, but they aren't allowed to because they have a limit on the development they can do in a season.

If they havent got the potential to build anywhere near as good an engine for 2 years on the trot or to make as big a step with the current system how on earth would they have the potential to out develop Mercedes in a free-for-all development war? They would just get left even further behind when the 3 pointed star unleashed HPP and all of their resources to do what they want.

I dont know why people have this mad view that more open rules mean closer racing, more open rules mean a bigger disparity of performance and so a more spread out field.

[i70q7m7ghw]

If they havent got the potential to build anywhere near as good an engine for 2 years on the trot or to make as big a step with the current system how on earth would they have the potential to out develop Mercedes in a free-for-all development war? They would just get left even further behind when the 3 pointed star unleashed HPP and all of their resources to do what they want.

I dont know why people have this mad view that more open rules mean closer racing, more open rules mean a bigger disparity of performance and so a more spread out field.

If that's the case, during the open development of the V10s, why didn't 1 engine end up 10+ seconds quicker than the rest of the field? Diminishing returns.

[bhall II]

What are you putting the change, or lack thereof down to?

It's everything. I know the discussion is centered around power units. But, I think it's difficult, if not impossible, to consider one factor in isolation of others when they're all indicative of a dysfunctional and scattershot approach to the rules.

Earlier, you mentioned Mercedes' substantial off-season gains between 2012 and 2013...

You could see the jump made by Mercedes between, 2012 and 2013 when the previous 2 years investments started to pay off.
The turnaround in deficit from 2012 to 2013 was 1.2 seconds average to the competition.
Stable rules, frozen engines, no great shift in tyre design, and they claw back 1.2 seconds in a single winter.

Aided by regulations that weren't nearly as stifling as those of today, Ferrari did that in-season in 2012. The F2012 started ~1.5s off the pace in Australia, and it ended the season three points adrift of the World Championship. The F14 T also started ~1.5s off the pace, but it wound up a staggering 223 points back, as the rules rendered meaningless virtually everything that happened after the first race.

That's not to say I think Ferrari could have taken the fight to Mercedes last year if the rules were more relaxed. As others have mentioned, there's a very real chance Mercedes would have simply extended its lead even further. But, it's a lot easier to accept that outcome than it is to stomach the futility of a task that's truly impossible, especially when everyone knew it was bound to happen.

The following is a discussion point concerning homologation from the initial framework of the current rules (released in 2007!)...

Against: Freezing can mean the teams are unable to remedy a system of their car which is uncompetitive, thus leaving them in a possibly hopeless position.

And for what benefit? It's an incredibly expensive marketing exercise that's done nothing for the sport except make it necessary to reduce costs ( ) in other areas, even those that actually impact the quality of the show (testing, wind tunnels, etc.)

(And let's all try to remember that in-season PU updates are a one-off exploitation of a loophole that no longer exists. It's back to utter futility next season.)

[horse]

Limited F1 engine market unhealthy, says Red Bull boss Horner (autosport.com)

"It's important for Formula 1 to have competitive engine manufacturers because what we're rapidly descending upon is two dominant engine suppliers and that ultimately isn't healthy for F1," he said.

"With the V8 you had three or four competitive engines that were capable of winning.

"Now you've only got two engines that are capable of winning races on merit, and that's not particularly healthy."

[Facts Only]

Anything that Christian Horner says can be re-written to;

"Whaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaaaa! Its not fair because I'm not winning! Whhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Moose]

It's especially bullshit considering how close they were to winning a race last weekend.

[iotar__]

It's especially bullshit considering how close they were to winning a race last weekend.

They were not close. Since Red Bull is threatening to quit over engines it's a good time to remind what they had to say about it in 2014, Renault made a mistake not concentrating on a single team in ’14, http://richlandf1.com/?p=24639

“That can be an element of it because you are never going to be able to satisfy everybody,” Horner replied when asked by reporters whether he believed Renault had split its focus on too many of its customers ahead of 2014.
“When you look at the engine Ferrari has made, the customers have had to adapt their cars accordingly.
“Mercedes likewise, whereas Renault has tried to keep all of their customers happy, which is an admirable thing to do, but it’s not the best way to be competitive.”
Horner went on to reveal that Red Bull first raised its concerns over the direction of Renault’s troubled engine programme back in 2012. We raised our concerns as far back as the end of 2012 with the direction the project was going ” he added.
"The great thing about a team like Red Bull is that we’ve always got options," said Horner.

Why don't you apply those rules to yourself now and accept whatever is given to you instead of expecting competitive engine, this is the system you created for yourself as co-owners and decision makers in F1. When it is Sauber or Mercedes customers getting second grade engines it's fine when it's RB it's a problem. No, it's only yours. "Customers adapting" does not only refer to chassis but includes waiting patiently if Mercedes decides to provide them with the latest specification. If engine manufacturers should focus on one team it's their choice whether they want to sell you engines or not.

The real problem with RB is they are not only a team, they are co-owners, have their own GP and are associated with Ecclestone but that shouldn't be a problem. As Jean Todt used to say about teams going bankrupt. it's quite normal in F1 for teams to leave.

[sgth0mas]

So this terrible engine formula is not only killing the small teams that have poor financial support...but even RBR want to drop out because they cant use their resources to test and improve the engines.

F1 has become such a poor series because you have these teams that dont care about racing...only being handed dominance for a long period of time. Both RBR and Merc demonstrate this to an extreme level.

Then the poor teams drive ineffictive testing rules that still make it nearly impossible to remain competitive.