VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

[Cold Fussion]

I very much disagree with that. If we follow that logic we'll go very deep into moral hazard terms.

"It's not our fault that we purposely made the brakes way too fragile in order to save money, and that somebody died because of it! The rules should have been more stringent."

"It's not our responsibility that somebody suffocated in their car due exhaust gasses being routed back into the car. Not a single country forbids this."

Some fine examples of straw man arguments there.

I also don't get why people are so eager to tell that the test does not represent real life conditions. A car spits out emission in function of the rpm of the engine. That's applicable on both a test bench as on the open road. VW made purposely a defeat device. The moment you use that, you crossed any line of "following the letter of the rules, not the spirit" and go right onto illegal-practice grounds.

VW is not the victim, and EPA is not the fraud. Let's be honest about that please. Even if we assume EPA left a gaping weakness in the test to be abused, it's still that: abuse.

The EPA designed a test to test for emissions, VW knowing this test, passed the EPA emissions test. This is not a similar case to Lance Armstrong (as someone suggested before) where testing was unable to test emissions at a sensitive enough level, this is a pure and simple case of a flawed testing methodology. Like Just_a_fan said, this is a free market delivering a free market result and it just happens to amusingly come from the land of the free, from the people who are oh so very eager to shout about how awesome a laissez-faire world is. Free market when it suits us, protectionism when foreigners do it better than us, the American Way™.

Now we don't even know to what extent VW had to go to exploit the weakness. It took academic research to find both the weakness and exploit, so I'm not going for just plugging in the cable on the ECU as a fix. It's possible that VW wired in a secondary hidden ecu, with sensors returning false data to the primary ecu.

No we don't know to what extend, so why are speculating/so hell bent that they have a secondary device to perform this role? There is far more moral/legal ambiguity if this is all done with the ECU and no additional hardware.

[Sixbarboost]

Indeed, VW cleared the stipulared EPA-tests and there's all there is to it, regardless of real world driving was another story.
You cannot expect companies in business to do anything more than what the rules and tests demand, anything else is just naive.

As CF said above, this is just a another blatant example of the typical US protectionism, which we have seen so many times.

And finally believe me, this sh*t will grow and spread. I'd be surprised if not Mercedes and BMW in time will get cought as well.

[bhall II]

Yes, "protectionism."

“Some people have mischaracterized what our role was,” says Dan Carder, interim director of the University of West Virginia’s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions (CAFEE). “Some have used the phrase ‘tipped off the EPA.’ But we were just working under contract.”

The contracting organization, a European non-profit, had wanted to convince European regulators to emulate strict U.S. standards for diesel emissions of nitrous oxides (NOX). So it asked CAFEE engineers to gather data from the field. They rented VW diesels, measured their tailpipe emissions on the road and compared them to measurements on the same cars made in the lab. The discrepancies were huge.

“We presented this in a public forum in San Diego, in the spring of 2014; we said, these are two vehicles; we’re presenting what we can present,” Carder says. “And EPA people were in the audience.” Meanwhile, the sponsoring group, called the International Council on Clean Transportation, published the results online as well.

[strad]

Indeed, VW cleared the stipulared EPA-tests and there's all there is to it, regardless of real world driving was another story.
You cannot expect companies in business to do anything more than what the rules and tests demand, anything else is just naive.

As CF said above, this is just a another blatant example of the typical US protectionism, which we have seen so many times.

And finally believe me, this sh*t will grow and spread. I'd be surprised if not Mercedes and BMW in time will get cought as well.

.
They very specifically designed it into the ECU to beat the tests at the local air quality or MOT tests.
It's criminal..
Isn't this the group that's always crying for eco awareness and greenness?
Now you saying it's ok if they want to pollute to excess?
I can and certainly do expect companies to follow the law . Especially with a known carcinogen like diesel exhaust.

[MadMatt]

If a car has a sports mode, what happens to emission then? Is it still under control or out of permitted limit?

The sport mode should not change it to the point it become illegal. At most it opens valves in the exhaust system to enhance the sound (and gas flow), sharpens the throttle response, make the steering wheel firmer, etc. But if you drive in normal mode and you floor it, it will operate at the same conditions as if you put "sport" or "race" mode on and floor it (or at least I hope, or if you driving your car in normal mode you are clearly being robbed of what you paid for).

[turbof1]

@cold_fussion: VW did not passed the test, not legitemate. I'm not going to argument this further, it is quite pointless since our standpoints are worlds apart. Just ask the shareholders have how they think it's been percepted.

[FW17]

I don't think one should apply logic into this case as this more a legal issue more than anything else.

We do not know what the wordings of the CAA are and its provisions and what the other Laws that would be applicable. We also do not know what the conditions that are worded into the licenses issued by EPA are, so this is just something that Lawyers can comment on.

As we know US law is more on the words of the law (don't know what it is) rather than spirit of the law (which is being discussed here)

[Sixbarboost]

...
I can and certainly do expect companies to follow the law . Especially with a known carcinogen like diesel exhaust.

Enlighten me, exactly which law have they broken?

[Sixbarboost]

@cold_fussion: VW did not passed the test, not legitemate. I'm not going to argument this further, it is quite pointless since our standpoints are worlds apart. Just ask the shareholders have how they think it's been percepted.

Of course they passed the EPA test, otherwise they would not be on the market, just like RBRs front wing did.

[MadMatt]

On a side note, VW's share continues to drop. After the big initial blow which made it lose 20%, the second blow regarding the 11 million vehicles affected lowered the share by another 13%. It was rated at 162USD before the crisis, and sits now at 108USD. Wow.

[bhall II]

Enlighten me, exactly which law have they broken?

(a) ENUMERATED PROHIBITIONS The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited—

[...]

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter [42 U.S. Code § 7521 - Emission standards for new motor vehicles or new motor vehicle engines], and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or...

[Sixbarboost]

Kindly explain in detail how VW broke that law?

[MadMatt]

Kindly explain in detail how VW broke that law?

I haven't read all your comments (sorry) but how can you be so blind? VW has broken the law by CHEATING on emissions, what is there more to say?

[Sixbarboost]

And this fact we know how, because EPA says so?

Fact is we don't know anything for certain, more than the US lawyers will have a field day with this.

[Tommy Cookers]

on the question of how much worse emissions are in normal driving than in the European equivalent ot the EPA test .....

on BBC2 (UK TV) last night an independent test company said around 4x (and this had improved in recent years)
the very few ICCT spot checks were similar, except that their BMW was not worse than the EPA test
this BBC2 had shown us late last year that 'all cars know they're being tested' etc

the EPA and equivalents always had an interest in emissions appearing to be ever-lower via their successive lowerings of limits
(and they have known from the start that emissions in-use are higher than in-test)
in this way the regulator's interests have always coincided with the industry's
and they both appear to be doing a good job as the emission limits are reduced over the years
as they are