Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ringo]

900 was claimed by very few people and when it was claimed it usually included the full 160hp from the MGU-K. Nobody has shown any calculations to support the theory that the MGU-H can provide a sustained 120kw to the MGU-K

Problem is that we don't know how old this image is, if the "throttle" was at 100%,if it is just an ICE number or total PU number. It was just a simple calculation made to see what numbers we would end up with.

The one reason that I believe that all the new generation PU's have more sustained power than this is simple. The acceleration times. If you look at the tracks where the ES has the least effect (such as spa)(as the energy that can be sent from the ES to the MGU-K is at its lowest percentage compared to the energy that the MGU-H can send to the MGU-K) and you look at acceleration times then you will notice that these engines have to be more powerful than the old V8's which we know to produce more than 650hp.

That 595 to 650 is purely ICE from my calculations. It does not include the sustained KERS, or "free" KERS power.

[Sixbarboost]

27.8 gram/second of 45 MJ/kg fuel, with a 36% efficiency that's 450 kW or 610 Hp.

On top of that you have a max 160 Hp MGU-K, regardless of MGU-H, that's a total of an expected 770 Hp.

The number 900 Hp is just the brainchild of extremely ignorant journos, it would call for a 44% efficiency.

Unless Petronas has cooked up some rocket brew, but the fuel composition is extremely regulated.

[Blackout]

Alberto Rodríguez ‏@Albrodpul

[Blackout]

Only the compressor intake duct makes the Merc engine look a bit less compact than the Honda

[j.yank]

27.8 gram/second of 45 MJ/kg fuel, with a 36% efficiency that's 450 kW or 610 Hp.

On top of that you have a max 160 Hp MGU-K, regardless of MGU-H, that's a total of an expected 770 Hp.

The number 900 Hp is just the brainchild of extremely ignorant journos, it would call for a 44% efficiency.

Unless Petronas has cooked up some rocket brew, but the fuel composition is extremely regulated.

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

[gruntguru]

27.8 gram/second of 45 MJ/kg fuel, with a 36% efficiency that's 450 kW or 610 Hp.

On top of that you have a max 160 Hp MGU-K, regardless of MGU-H, that's a total of an expected 770 Hp.

The number 900 Hp is just the brainchild of extremely ignorant journos, it would call for a 44% efficiency.

Unless Petronas has cooked up some rocket brew, but the fuel composition is extremely regulated.

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

That means 690 - 750 from the crankshaft (plus 160 from MGUK). That might be possible in qualy mode with high boost and zero backpressure.

Self sustaining is probably 700 or so - say 600 crankshaft plus 100 MGUH.

[bill shoe]

That means 690 - 750 from the crankshaft (plus 160 from MGUK). That might be possible in qualy mode with high boost and zero backpressure.

Yea, I think qualy mode involves dumping energy from the battery to the MGU-K at the max 160 hp, plus dumping lots of energy into the MGU-H to reduce backpressure. Notice the MGU-H trick could theoretically go so far as using the turbo-compressor to also push the pistons down via positive air pressure-- more power out the crank!

These MGU-H tricks are obviously not self-sustaining, but there is still something impressive about it because it places really high power demand on the battery which still needs to last several race weekends without getting cooked. Are cars allowed to run with a bit of ice or dry-ice on the battery's cooling system during qualifying?

[gruntguru]

. . . . dumping lots of energy into the MGU-H to reduce backpressure. . .

The energy is used to run the compressor. The BP is reduced by opening the wastegate.

[Sixbarboost]

How do you achieve both high boost and zero backpressure, please explain?

But anyway, what do you gain by running a high boost when the fuel-flow is limited?

[Sixbarboost]

Those Honda images are intriguing, how did they manage to tuck in the compressor in the vee?

[gruntguru]

How do you achieve both high boost and zero backpressure, please explain?

But anyway, what do you gain by running a high boost when the fuel-flow is limited?

Run the MGUH as a motor to power the compressor - achieves the high boost without need for power from the turbine.
Open the large bore wastegate - achieves zero exhaust backpressure.

Higher boost increases power from the crankshaft (extra pressure drives the pistons down during intake stroke).

1 bar extra boost = 1 bar increase in BMEP.
BMEP is about 36 bar so 1 bar increase = 2.7% power increase

[Sixbarboost]

Right, thanks gg, but can you make a full lap on the battery to do that, or do you need to steal some from the MGU-K?

So you run the compressor to drive the ICE like an expander, that was a new one to me, but don't you get a lean mix?

[Andres125sx]

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

Comparing current times with those in 1987 when power output in qualifying was above 1000 bhp you can´t find another explanation than current PUs are running now in the range from around 2000-2500bhp, but I guess something is wrong in that deduction

[godlameroso]

Right, thanks gg, but can you make a full lap on the battery to do that, or do you need to steal some from the MGU-K?

So you run the compressor to drive the ICE like an expander, that was a new one to me, but don't you get a lean mix?

Clever combustion chamber can mitigate that.

[diffuser]

It does reduce costs when you get to 0 tokens. You allow just reliability upgrades. At any point they can get together (like they did in the V8 era and this year in SPA) and give the weaker PUs (opportunity, tokens, whatever) to allow them to catchup.

So you think that once a team gets to 0 tokens it's factory shutdown and the costs are reduced?

Before they've even spent half of their 2015 tokens they're already planning the whole of 2016's token spend - just look at Mercedes, they spent 2015 tokens so that they could make the 2016 tokens more effective.

The resources are there, so they'll be used.

I meant, when their total allotment for a whole year is 0.

In 2019 the total allotment for the whole year will be 3 tokens. The avenues available to use these tokens are:

Pressure charging--->From Engine exhaust flanges to turbine inlet.
Electrical system---->Engine mounted electrical components (e.g. wiring loom within legality volume, sensors,
------------------------->alternator). Excluding actuators, ignition coils and sparkplugs.
ERS-------------------->Wiring loom

1 token each. That will slow investment in the PU.

Please don't interpret what I'm saying to be that I agree with this, just what I think the reasons why they are doing it.