Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bauc
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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If they leave, they will just put a salt on a open wound, but I'm sure Williams, Force India, Sauber ect will gladly fight to split the TV income by scoring more points next year since we will not have RBR & STR around to ''steal'' points from them so on the long term F1 will be just fine without them. My honest opinion is that I would like them to stay, but not like this...They knew the rules of the game in advance so the main problem here is ''choices''.
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KeiKo403
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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I wonder if they're worried much about the performance vs Sauber & Haas. Sauber started the year very strong. But what if RBR get their own way and then Haas & Sauber stipulate engine parity.

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Lets just assume for 1 minute that Red Bull follows through with it's quit threat. Wouldn't there be whole lot of money lost (F1 Prize Money). Dare I say it would cost more to leave the sport that what it would to remain in the sport (uncompetitive) for another season...think about all the redundancies they'd have to pay and all of the contracts they'd need to honour with compensation. The team isn't bankrupt or being sold so Red Bull contracts would still need to be honoured one way or another.

Also, all this about the VW road cars scandal isn't such a deal breaker for suppling engine's in future, VW group can easily drop a different brand to build an engine for Red Bull, Lamborghini, Audi or even stay with VW.

Just putting this out there now. Bernie won't budge and force Ferrari's hand. Ferrari have already shown they can play hard ball by refusing to buy out Bottas' Williams contract and Red Bull will either have to sit quiet for a season licking their wounds or follow through with their threat and leave the sport which could lead to Ricciardo and Newey moving on into new teams (Renault Lotus - Mercedes?).

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djos
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Jonnycraig wrote: The simple answer of course is for Ferrari to give RB their newest engines, and RB to give Ferrari all their aero and chassis data....
That's just idiotic! Ferrari have agreed to be an F1 Engine supplier, none of the teams have agreed to be F1 Chassis suppliers!

F1 has always had issues with customers getting shafted with "lesser spec engines", RedBull are merely trying to ensure they can compete on a level PU playing field.
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djos
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WilliamsF1 wrote:
How do you expect an engine to improve its performance without the budget to support its improvement. So many man hours are required on the Renault engine to bring it up to the level of a Ferrari engine, if the man hours are not being spent how does one improve?
Exactly, Renault have clearly under-invested in their PU and are paying the price for it. RedBull even paid for engine guru Mario Illien to help with development and Renault turned their noses up at his efforts.

Renault are now buying Lotus but they will find out very quickly that they need to invest a LOT more money into both the chassis and the PU to compete with the top 3 teams.
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Cannonballer
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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djos wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: The simple answer of course is for Ferrari to give RB their newest engines, and RB to give Ferrari all their aero and chassis data....
That's just idiotic! Ferrari have agreed to be an F1 Engine supplier, none of the teams have agreed to be F1 Chassis suppliers!

F1 has always had issues with customers getting shafted with "lesser spec engines", RedBull are merely trying to ensure they can compete on a level PU playing field.
Agreeing to be an F1 engine supplier does not mean that they agreed to supply engines to everyone. When you have a rude and potentially ungrateful customer, you are usually pointing at the sign that reads: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
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wickedz50
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Cannonballer wrote:
djos wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: The simple answer of course is for Ferrari to give RB their newest engines, and RB to give Ferrari all their aero and chassis data....
That's just idiotic! Ferrari have agreed to be an F1 Engine supplier, none of the teams have agreed to be F1 Chassis suppliers!

F1 has always had issues with customers getting shafted with "lesser spec engines", RedBull are merely trying to ensure they can compete on a level PU playing field.
Agreeing to be an F1 engine supplier does not mean that they agreed to supply engines to everyone. When you have a rude and potentially ungrateful customer, you are usually pointing at the sign that reads: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
I do not see anything rude and ungrateful in this. RB has every right to speak about the non-performance of Renault engine in 2015. Renault engine unreliability increased in 2015 and that is more worry to RB than anything else. What intention and commitment has Renault shown to improve their 2016 engine and be competitive ? I guess Renault is only interested in acquiring LOTUS at the moment. A near perfect V8 engine and a flawless record of winning championship in F1 history does not make them God to decide when and how they improve and develop their current engine or if they are interested at all.
RB is right to point out that engine supplier should supply similar competitive engines to the customer team. If the customer team is only eligible for a B-spec engine then it makes sense for RB to leave the sport as the current formula is engine performance driven.
Reserving the right to service is entirely business. I do not think RB cares much about it. No competitive engine in 2016 then goodbye F1 and Bernie. The sport is already in bad shape and why should RB care if the sport exists in future or not.

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djos
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Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Cannonballer wrote:
djos wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote: The simple answer of course is for Ferrari to give RB their newest engines, and RB to give Ferrari all their aero and chassis data....
That's just idiotic! Ferrari have agreed to be an F1 Engine supplier, none of the teams have agreed to be F1 Chassis suppliers!

F1 has always had issues with customers getting shafted with "lesser spec engines", RedBull are merely trying to ensure they can compete on a level PU playing field.
Agreeing to be an F1 engine supplier does not mean that they agreed to supply engines to everyone. When you have a rude and potentially ungrateful customer, you are usually pointing at the sign that reads: We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
RedBull have been paying a lot of money for underperforming engines. How is it unreasonable for them to be critical of the product?
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Chuckjr
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This writer of this article is of the thought that RB is correct in their behavior....

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... ight_Call/

Japanese Grand Prix – Heading to Suzuka, Red Bull have decided to hold Formula 1 to ransom over their engine supply – and they’re right to do so.The Red Bull company look set to pull out of Formula 1 at the end of 2015, with the Red Bull Racing team seemingly left with no engine supply in 2016 after Dr. Helmut Marko confirmed to Formula1.com that their partnership is ending this year. Mercedes have already decided against supplying RBR with engines, and Ferrari appear to only be interested in supplying older specification units to a team with the resources to beat them. So why have Red Bull publicly broken up with Renault with no power supply already in place?

The long and convoluted story of Red Bull’s relationship with Renault becoming…disharmonious began even before the current engine rules were brought in. When the engine rules were being drawn up to introduce greener, more environmentally-friendly power units, Renault were right at the head of the queue pushing the changes to engines utilising technology that could be filtered down to their road cars. Obviously confident in their own abilities, despite not having the strongest V8 in the field at the time, Renault would surely come out swinging when the shiny new V6s were run for the first time. At least, Red Bull thought so.

Instead, the Renault power unit has proved to be something of a disaster. Underpowered and unreliable, the Red Bull Racing team had to settle for second best in 2014. That was despite the RB10 being an aerodynamic evolution of the dominant 2013 RB9. With no discernible drop in chassis efficiency, the power unit had let them down. But Red Bull, aside from a few mutterings, largely kept the faith with the manufacturer they had won so much with. The winter break of 2014/2015 would set things straight, particularly when the FIA revealed a regulations loophole that would allow teams to use engine tokens at any point during the 2015 season, tokens that could be used to improve areas of performance, reliability and efficiency.

Instead, 2015 has been an even bigger disaster for Renault. Somehow, reliability seems to have gotten worse despite no obvious step up in performance. Ferrari, having struggled themselves on the power unit front in 2014, seemed to work everything out over winter and are now firmly second best behind Mercedes. Red Bull, for the most part, have been left vying with Williams-Mercedes for the position of third fastest. Understandably, vexation has set in. According to recently published reports, Red Bull Racing are the highest spenders on the grid, yet the results just are not coming. Warning signs have flared up from the Red Bull camp throughout 2015 – first warnings of a Renault divorce, then of a complete withdrawal from the sport. From a sporting perspective, it all appears very petty and unsporting but from a business perspective, Red Bull are completely right to get stroppy.

Red Bull Content Pool
Red Bull Content Pool
Red Bull’s strength lies in their aerodynamic and engineering department. The 2009-2013 era of Formula 1 was one that relied on aerodynamic excellence and, thanks to the design genius of Adrian Newey, Sebastian Vettel & Red Bull were able to dominate. A horsepower deficiency from the power unit was rarely a hindrance, thanks to the Renault’s relatively modest appetite for petrol. Coupled with aerodynamic solutions such as the double diffuser, Red Bull simply were not to be caught and ended that particular era as Champions. However, there is a crucial difference between the two eras and it is this difference that is driving Red Bull to go all-in and hope no-one calls their bluff. That difference is in the nature of the rules. Put simply, there was nothing in the rule book preventing other teams from implementing the solutions RBR had come up with. If Adrian Newey came up with something and put it on the car, the only thing stopping other teams from doing so was time and resources. In this new, engine-dominated era, the rulebook is very different. Homologation in 2014 meant that the engines were locked down for the season. If a manufacturer didn’t get it quite right, tough titties. A window was opened over winter 2014/2015 to allow engine changes using a token system, before the rule-makers found they had left a loophole open and no set homologation had been indicated for 2015. As a result, the teams have been able to use their tokens when they feel like over the 2015 season. For 2016, this loophole isn’t likely to be left open. Worse, the amount of ‘frozen’ power unit components that the manufacturers can no longer change increases.

So, coming to the end of 2015, Renault have made no visible progress in closing the gap to Mercedes or Ferrari. Honda’s power unit has made horsepower gains, and is possibly already more powerful than Renault’s, but still suffers from energy recovery/deployment and software issues. It’s very hard to feel confident in your engine supplier in such circumstances. It’s understandable then, that Red Bull have lashed out. No more of this, they say. Open up the rules, let us change engine, or we’ll quit. While no official word has come from RBR or Renault about their upcoming split, Helmut Marko has said in an interview it’s all over: “Renault couldn’t provide us with an engine that enabled us to run at the front. It’s that simple. We couldn’t see that they would be up there with Mercedes or Ferrari next year. Never forget, we are customers – we pay for the product and nobody likes to spend money on an inferior product. So it was time to make a decision.”

Over the past few weeks, Red Bull have openly courted Mercedes & Ferrari about an engine deal. Mercedes shot down the idea very quickly, as there is no benefit for them to supply them. A Merc-powered Red Bull with a 400 million euro budget could, and would, steal wins and titles from the works team. Why equip a strong competitor, customer or not, with the means to beat the best advertising platform Mercedes have had in years? Ferrari have been a little bit more open to the idea, but presumably only wish to give RBR older spec engines, such as the deal they have with Manor. If they had opened negotiations with Ferrari, Singapore couldn’t have come at a worse time for them. The tight and twisty circuit allowed RBR to overcome their horsepower disadvantage and run rings around Mercedes AMG, and almost defeat Ferrari. The RB11 proved that it is every bit as fearsome a chassis as any of the Championship thoroughbreds Milton Keynes have produced, and equipping such a lithe and agile machine with the power unit that Ferrari have only started figuring out…. well, there’s no advantage to Ferrari doing so either, is there?

Craig Boon/Octane Photographic Ltd.
Craig Boon/Octane Photographic Ltd.
This is why Red Bull have gone all-in this week. The fact that the biggest budget team, the team that represents 20% of the current field, does more show runs and public demo runs for the sport than any other team, are willing to walk away should their demands not be met – that shows the disdain they have for the current rules. Red Bull are performing to the best of their ability, as Singapore proved, yet the rules simply do not allow them to catch up. There is absolutely no benefit for them to continue in the sport under such circumstances. The costly, complicated and restrictive engine rules mean that there is no way a new manufacturer can step in and start a partnership with Red Bull – just look at how difficult Honda are having it. And that’s with similar engineering prowess, the might of Honda, and a lot more preparation time than Red Bull have between now and the start of 2016.

It’s difficult to see a resolution to this. Renault have yet to use any of their tokens; could a last gasp engine upgrade convince both parties to continue working together for their own mutual benefit? Renault look set to enter the sport as a works team again, which could yet placate Dietrich Mateschitz as he sees Renault continue to take the power unit seriously. Ferrari aren’t likely to offer engines of parity to their own, which RBR have already said they won’t accept. Mercedes – they’re right out. Honda don’t appear to have entered the equation just yet, oddly enough. Even with political intervention from Bernie Ecclestone, what enticements could he possibly offer Mercedes or Ferrari that would convince either to possibly sacrifice success to a customer rival – a rival who, at best, would only make a small dent in the R&D costs for supplying such an engine.

Red Bull, with both RBR & Toro Rosso, are signed up to F1 through the Concorde Agreement up until 2020. Breaking that contract would understandably result in severe financial penalties and legal proceedings. But, with 300 million a year invested into RBR from the Red Bull company alone, would the financial penalties outweigh the savings from failing to participate? The sudden reduction of the 2016 field from 22 to 18 would do a lot of damage to F1 and quite simply, allows the two big engine manufacturers to essentially enter a two horse race for the foreseeable future. While there is the usual cries of “let them leave” and “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” from fans, Red Bull are one of the biggest spenders and promoters of the sport. Not only do they own two of the teams, but their sometimes harsh driver programme has spat out exceptional talents like Sebastian Vettel, Daniel Ricciardo, Max Verstappen, Carlos Sainz & Daniil Kvyat. Without Bull backing, would any of them have made it into the sport? Imagine the fuss from race promoters if they all (minus Vettel obviously) were suddenly left without a seat for 2016.

There simply isn’t any other team right now with the resources or skillset to challenge Merc or Ferrari. Some may argue that Williams could, but they haven’t yet. Merc’s willingness to supply them, but not Red Bull, is also indicative of how much of a threat the Daimler board view Grove. Red Bull are fully aware of how much fallout there would be from their sudden withdrawal, and such a move would highlight the damage that the switch to such an expensive and restrictive engine formula has done. The not-quite-public-yet separation of Red Bull and Renault may yet prove to be a last ditch collaborative tactic to push for a relaxation of the engine rules. Don’t be surprised if they win this. By this time next year, we could be thanking them for this.

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Gettingonabit
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Well! that was a good read, certainly nailed it for me and I'm no Red Bull fanboy. Seems to me there is fault on both sides of the Red Bull-Renault saga (as there is in any relationship) but them leaving the sport would not be a good thing imo.

The best outcome from this would be a relaxation of the stupid and restrictive engine development rules, I cant see how they have been good for the sport.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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That article highlights that there haven't been any links between RBR or TR and Honda yet. Surely it would make sense from Honda's perspective to have 3 times as many cars running around getting data on their engines??
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ChrisF1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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This discussion is both fascinating and boring as hell! The real interesting details will be whispered behind closed doors, and only revealed next year or possibly beyond.

Certainly something needs to be done though, and I don't want to see Red Bull leave.
adrianjordan wrote:That article highlights that there haven't been any links between RBR or TR and Honda yet. Surely it would make sense from Honda's perspective to have 3 times as many cars running around getting data on their engines??
Why would Red Bull want rid of the underpowered Renault for the underpowered and underperforming Honda?

KeiKo403
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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But would RBR still stay if that was the case. If performance in Renault PU increased but was still down the same amount relative to Merc & Ferrari what then?

Merc & Ferrari continue to develop their engine....that cost, that leads to them having to increase the price for Williams, Force India Sauber & Manor. 2 out of those 4 could end up leaving the sport because they can't afford the engines. Then what? F1 still loses 2 teams but the cost of PU development still increases. Merc & Ferrari lose a customer and have to absorb even more of the PU development cost as they can't recoup it from selling to a customer. Opening the regs is a bad idea for atleast 6 teams but a good idea for only 3 or 4 (RBR, STR, McHonda & MercLotus Renault)

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djos
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Gettingonabit wrote:Well! that was a good read, certainly nailed it for me and I'm no Red Bull fanboy. Seems to me there is fault on both sides of the Red Bull-Renault saga (as there is in any relationship) but them leaving the sport would not be a good thing imo.

The best outcome from this would be a relaxation of the stupid and restrictive engine development rules, I cant see how they have been good for the sport.
Indeed it was and it nicely highlighted the massive contribution RedBull make to the promotion of f1 in general and the massive efforts they have put into developing drivers based solely on their talents.
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Sportbild say 2015 Ferrari engines only on offer for Red Bull...
http://sportbild.bild.de/formel-1/2015/ ... sport.html

Was claimed by Kravitz on SkyF1 that as well as a 2016 engine, RB with Ecclestone's backing were demanding Shell fuel and the Ferrari qualifying software.

Mentioned at the same time that the paddock rumour is that Merc won't supply them with anything because of the way RB protested over the 2013 tyre tests....