Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[j.yank]

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

Comparing current times with those in 1987 when power output in qualifying was above 1000 bhp you can´t find another explanation than current PUs are running now in the range from around 2000-2500bhp, but I guess something is wrong in that deduction

You can't compare apples with oranges but we are talking about oranges with oranges.

[j.yank]

27.8 gram/second of 45 MJ/kg fuel, with a 36% efficiency that's 450 kW or 610 Hp.

On top of that you have a max 160 Hp MGU-K, regardless of MGU-H, that's a total of an expected 770 Hp.

The number 900 Hp is just the brainchild of extremely ignorant journos, it would call for a 44% efficiency.

Unless Petronas has cooked up some rocket brew, but the fuel composition is extremely regulated.

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

That means 690 - 750 from the crankshaft (plus 160 from MGUK). That might be possible in qualy mode with high boost and zero backpressure.

Self sustaining is probably 700 or so - say 600 crankshaft plus 100 MGUH.

In the race they are running at 780 to 820 because even the top teams cannot harvest enough energy in one lap to race at full power. The qualification mode I think is much simpler: in the previous lap they are charging the ES to 4 MJ without using anything from this energy, and then in the quick lap this energy is used together with the charging from MGU-H and MGU-K in the quick lap. In this case they have almost double energy to use at full throttle which boost the average time when the car is running with maximum power. Hence and the improved lap time. McLaren don't harvest enough energy in the formation lap, so, this causes they to have less average time at full power in the quickest lap.

[alexx_88]

I'm pretty sure they normally start with their batteries fully loaded to 4MJ when they leave the pits. Probably Mclaren doesn't have the 'qualy mode' where they run the wastegate fully open, since Ferrari only introduced it in Monza.

[Juzh]

I'm pretty sure they normally start with their batteries fully loaded to 4MJ when they leave the pits. Probably Mclaren doesn't have the 'qualy mode' where they run the wastegate fully open, since Ferrari only introduced it in Monza.

Pit charging is not allowed. And no, they don't have it. Only ferrari and merc do.

[j.yank]

I'm pretty sure they normally start with their batteries fully loaded to 4MJ when they leave the pits. Probably Mclaren doesn't have the 'qualy mode' where they run the wastegate fully open, since Ferrari only introduced it in Monza.

No, they cannot charge in the pit. This is forbidden.

I tried to do some simulations in OptimumLab. Yes, there are not any hybrid cars to use as a base, but if you calculate the harvested power based on the full throttle and braking times for each circuit you can get some idea about the average available maximum power during the lap. Then you can make some comparisons between the teams, and between different setups of each team. From these comparisons it seems that it is highly unlikely the MGU-H to be the problematic part in the McLaren case. If you run one simulation with MGU-H working on its 50% capacity (out from 55 hp), and then if you run simulation with 50% from MGU-K capacity (120 hp), you will see that MGU-H will give much worst time comparing to what we see in the reality. So, not functional MGU-K better reproduce the actual lap times. Or maybe they have designed too small MGU-K not capable to reach 120 hp?

[alexx_88]

Sorry, but that's not what the rulebook says:

34) PRE-RACE PARC FERMÉ
34.1 Every team must provide the FIA technical delegate with a suspension set-up sheet for both of
their cars before each of them leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice
session.
34.2 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for
the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave
the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.
Between these times, other than when cars are returned to the parc fermé overnight, the
following work may be carried out :
a) Engines may be started.
b) Fuel may be added or removed and a fuel breather fitted.
c) Wheels, wheel fasteners and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre
pressures checked.
d) Spark plugs may be removed in order to carry out an internal engine inspection and
cylinder compression checks.
e) Permitted heating or cooling devices may be fitted.
f) A jump battery may be connected and on board electrical units may be freely accessed
via a physical connection to the car.
g) Charging and / or discharging of the ERS energy storage devices

So charging the ES is allowed.

Secondly, your simulation doesn't take into account the percentage of time when they are used and how they are used. MGU-K is mostly there as a motor, while the MGU-H is mostly used as a generator for the MGU-K, we know that much. The MGU-H's harvesting power, although lower than that of the MGU-K, produces more energy per lap, as shown from the values published a while ago on the forum.
Also, how did you count the MGU-H's power, because it's not used to power the car in race trim? Btw, I presume you meant kW, not HP.

[j.yank]

Sorry, but that's not what the rulebook says:

34) PRE-RACE PARC FERMÉ
34.1 Every team must provide the FIA technical delegate with a suspension set-up sheet for both of
their cars before each of them leaves the pit lane for the first time during qualifying practice
session.
34.2 Each car will be deemed to be in parc fermé from the time at which it leaves the pit lane for
the first time during qualifying practice until the start of the race. Any car which fails to leave
the pit lane during qualifying practice will be deemed to be in parc fermé at the end of Q1.
Between these times, other than when cars are returned to the parc fermé overnight, the
following work may be carried out :
a) Engines may be started.
b) Fuel may be added or removed and a fuel breather fitted.
c) Wheels, wheel fasteners and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre
pressures checked.
d) Spark plugs may be removed in order to carry out an internal engine inspection and
cylinder compression checks.
e) Permitted heating or cooling devices may be fitted.
f) A jump battery may be connected and on board electrical units may be freely accessed
via a physical connection to the car.
g) Charging and / or discharging of the ERS energy storage devices

So charging the ES is allowed.

Secondly, your simulation doesn't take into account the percentage of time when they are used and how they are used. MGU-K is mostly there as a motor, while the MGU-H is mostly used as a generator for the MGU-K, we know that much. The MGU-H's harvesting power, although lower than that of the MGU-K, produces more energy per lap, as shown from the values published a while ago on the forum.
Also, how did you count the MGU-H's power, because it's not used to power the car in race trim? Btw, I presume you meant kW, not HP.

Look at page 87 from the Technical regulations and pay attention to the left-most box explaining the EE limits.

Yes, I mean Kw when talking about MGU but the final power is in HP. Otherwise the simulations are based exactly on the time when both MGU are harvesting or deploying. Of course, you cannot simulate in OptimumLap the exact regimes of PU but you can have the lump sum of the available energy. At example, if you know the full throttle time you can get the MGU-H generation and MGU-K deployment, if you know the braking time you will get the MGU-K generation. I know that this is very, very approximate, but if you put the average values of all other parameters of the car (drag, downforce, tires) you will get pretty close to the reality results.

[alexx_88]

That's interesting, does this mean the two section of the rules contradict each other?

Regarding what you said, my only question is how your simulations would be able to detect between these two cases:

1. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it overheats
2. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it doesn't have anymore left

Based on what the teams were saying, Ferrari's issues and what Mclaren are saying, it all points to the fact that harvesting energy through the MGU-H is the hardest part and the most likely to get wrong.

PS: Also, even if you know the full-throttle time, the amount of energy harvested through the MGU-H is heavily dependent on turbine parameters.

[j.yank]

That's interesting, does this mean the two section of the rules contradict each other?

Regarding what you said, my only question is how your simulations would be able to detect between these two cases:

1. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it overheats
2. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it doesn't have anymore left

Based on what the teams were saying, Ferrari's issues and what Mclaren are saying, it all points to the fact that harvesting energy through the MGU-H is the hardest part and the most likely to get wrong.

PS: Also, even if you know the full-throttle time, the amount of energy harvested through the MGU-H is heavily dependent on turbine parameters.

No, they don't contradict each other. The sporting regulations say just that they have to check in the pit whether ERS can charge/discharge. Nothing more. The technical regulations specify how much and when they can charge/discharge.

In both cases you just simply calculate the available energy, and how much of it you can deploy during the lap. At example, in Suzuka the lap is about 94 sec of which 10% are braking and 65% at full throttle. If you have fully functional MGU-K at 120 kw and MGU-H at 55 kw you will have 4.34 MJ per lap that will give you 63% of the lap time at 73 kw deployment from MGU-K. If you have MGU-H at 25 kw then you will have 43 kw deployment from MGU-K for the same 63% time of the lap. If your MGU-K for some reason is restricted to 60 kw (both generation and deployment) but the MGU-H works at 55 kw, then you will have these 60 kw for the whole full throttle time of 65%. All of these scenarios (and more like them) lead to different available maximum power. Not working MGU-K is closest to the reality in the McLaren case.

[Farfar]

That's interesting, does this mean the two section of the rules contradict each other?

Regarding what you said, my only question is how your simulations would be able to detect between these two cases:

1. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it overheats
2. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it doesn't have anymore left

Based on what the teams were saying, Ferrari's issues and what Mclaren are saying, it all points to the fact that harvesting energy through the MGU-H is the hardest part and the most likely to get wrong.

PS: Also, even if you know the full-throttle time, the amount of energy harvested through the MGU-H is heavily dependent on turbine parameters.

No, they don't contradict each other. The sporting regulations say just that they have to check in the pit whether ERS can charge/discharge. Nothing more. The technical regulations specify how much and when they can charge/discharge.

In both cases you just simply calculate the available energy, and how much of it you can deploy during the lap. At example, in Suzuka the lap is about 94 sec of which 10% are braking and 65% at full throttle. If you have fully functional MGU-K at 120 kw and MGU-H at 55 kw you will have 4.34 MJ per lap that will give you 63% of the lap time at 73 kw deployment from MGU-K. If you have MGU-H at 25 kw then you will have 43 kw deployment from MGU-K for the same 63% time of the lap. If your MGU-K for some reason is restricted to 60 kw (both generation and deployment) but the MGU-H works at 55 kw, then you will have these 60 kw for the whole full throttle time of 65%. All of these scenarios (and more like them) lead to different available maximum power. Not working MGU-K is closest to the reality in the McLaren case.

Could be Both? Maybe they don´t harvest enought energy from MGU-h because the turbine/combustion/Compresor is not good enought. And maybe the dasign the MGU-K smaller to use les power than 120KW but during more time, or simply the can manage the overheating because it´s too small

[Andres125sx]

Comparing the times from last year and this year on several circuits for different teams you can't find another explanation than Mercedes and Ferrari are running now in the range from 850 to 910 hp (with ERS).

Comparing current times with those in 1987 when power output in qualifying was above 1000 bhp you can´t find another explanation than current PUs are running now in the range from around 2000-2500bhp, but I guess something is wrong in that deduction

You can't compare apples with oranges but we are talking about oranges with oranges.

Sorry but no, not even if you assume exactly the same aero, same chasis, same suspensions, etc., what is false as every car improve in winter, but even assuming that your deduction is far from accurate.

Comparing laptimes to work out some power numbers is flawed for a simple reason, this PUs do not provide same power constantly, it depend on the energy harvested, so an improvement in energy harvesting that allows using full power (ICE + ERS) longer will improve laptimes even if peak power is exactly the same.

That´s exactly what happened with Ferrari, they improved their laptimes more than one second compared to past season and main reason was not a power increase, but a harvesting increase. I guess they improved peak power too, they should have learnt something during first season, but you get what I mean, laptime improvement is not necessarily related with power increase, specially this season after Mercedes proved how important energy harvesting is

[stevesingo]

That's interesting, does this mean the two section of the rules contradict each other?

Regarding what you said, my only question is how your simulations would be able to detect between these two cases:

1. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it overheats
2. MGU-K not supplying enough power because it doesn't have anymore left

Based on what the teams were saying, Ferrari's issues and what Mclaren are saying, it all points to the fact that harvesting energy through the MGU-H is the hardest part and the most likely to get wrong.

PS: Also, even if you know the full-throttle time, the amount of energy harvested through the MGU-H is heavily dependent on turbine parameters.

No, they don't contradict each other. The sporting regulations say just that they have to check in the pit whether ERS can charge/discharge. Nothing more. The technical regulations specify how much and when they can charge/discharge.

In both cases you just simply calculate the available energy, and how much of it you can deploy during the lap. At example, in Suzuka the lap is about 94 sec of which 10% are braking and 65% at full throttle. If you have fully functional MGU-K at 120 kw and MGU-H at 55 kw you will have 4.34 MJ per lap that will give you 63% of the lap time at 73 kw deployment from MGU-K. If you have MGU-H at 25 kw then you will have 43 kw deployment from MGU-K for the same 63% time of the lap. If your MGU-K for some reason is restricted to 60 kw (both generation and deployment) but the MGU-H works at 55 kw, then you will have these 60 kw for the whole full throttle time of 65%. All of these scenarios (and more like them) lead to different available maximum power. Not working MGU-K is closest to the reality in the McLaren case.

From here...

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/65837/ ... di-al-giro

ERS
The Suzuka circuit allows an energy recovery equal to 995 kJ braking with the MGU-K and 2,866 kJ in acceleration with the MGU-H for a total of 3,861 kJ per revolution. However the capacity recovered to be dynamically managed in the race along with the gasoline consumption. The contribution of performance of the ERS on this sensitive circuit power is high and is 3 "1 for each round and is less than 23 km / h in top speed.

[j.yank]

Comparing laptimes to work out some power numbers is flawed for a simple reason, this PUs do not provide same power constantly, it depend on the energy harvested, so an improvement in energy harvesting that allows using full power (ICE + ERS) longer will improve laptimes even if peak power is exactly the same.

Simulators like OptimuLap do not relay on the maximum power applied constantly during the entire lap. They are using the value of the maximum power as available power that is modified in each corner and straight of the circuit, depending of their specific characteristics. Yes, we do not know the exact moment when energy from MGU-H is applied and when from MGU-K but we know the aggregate sum per lap that put the ultimate limit over the available energy. This available energy is much, much more important than the peak power. This depends on the accuracy of the simulation software how this available energy will be distributed over the lap. Yes, the parameters of the chassis have huge impact but if you put uniform parameters for all cars except their power you can get at least oriented what is the weight of one or another parameter - in our case which one of the MGUs contributes more for the lap time deficiencies of McLaren. Don't try to be very precise, but don't ignore the general balances of the process.

[gruntguru]

Charging the ES for a qualy hot lap could be done from the MGUK - engine driven if necessary. It only takes 33 seconds at 120 kW to harvest a full 4 MJ.

Of course the MGUH and braking regen would supply some of the 4MJ so the time and fuel required to fully charge the ES would be significantly less.

[drunkf1fan]

Charging the ES for a qualy hot lap could be done from the MGUK - engine driven if necessary. It only takes 33 seconds at 120 kW to harvest a full 4 MJ.

Of course the MGUH and braking regen would supply some of the 4MJ so the time and fuel required to fully charge the ES would be significantly less.

There is a limit of 2MJ charging directly between the mgu-k and the ES so you can't get 4MJ with exactly that method. However you can go full throttle and mgu-k brake effectively the whole time to get 2MJ directly and there is nothing stopping you with this method sending mgu-k harvested power to spin up the mgu-h, then harvest from the mgu-h into the battery. Less efficient clearly but a combination of mgu-k to es and indirectly through the mgu-h should fill the ES over a full lap without too many issues.