Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[scarbs]

As far as I see it, if you are monitoring a rival team either in real time or after the event, that is acceptable in as much that goes on all the time. Teams do not break into each others garages, they simply look at what goes on, I've seen a picture of teams set up sheet published on the internet recently and I've taken similar pictures too. All the teams do it ad of course take sound recording from the trackside, pictures of each other cars and probably alot more too.
Radio broadasts are a similar thing, they are effectively open broadcasts on a public wave length. There are even websites that publish the frequencies and stuff for the teams radios.

Where McLaren differed in this case was that they actively sought private information and in some cases got it before the events.

As far as people taking data from one team to another, alas that also goes on, as long as the employee is not recruited specifically for that data. Otherwise people do take soem nfo with them fron job job, it happens in every industry. The ex-ferari Toyota staff took some code and aplications, this wasnt the full design detail sof the ferrari just a few tools to get there new jobs going, they could no doubt easily have recreated a similar application. Their actions were of course wrong, but not as serious as some suggest.

[zac510]

You could call it 'passive' surveillance, scarbs.

[mep]

Some try to compare two different kinds of spionage.

Having the hole drawings of an actual car, with all its details and datas,
how the rear wing works depending on the speed and so on,
is really a hugh advantage. And this in the beginning of the season.

Listening to the radio, or the engine sound, or knowing the pitstop strategies are really peanuts against this.

So you can't compare this. And you can't say they all are doing this.
Or does Ferrari has McLaren drawings of the actual car. And do they know all little parts, maybe of the engine. Where you can't look from the outside.



If an engineer changes the team he can take some infos with, in his head
but those infos are at least one year old. So the actual season is over and the infos may be not up to date anymore.
Those infos are also in his head. Having them on paper is much more worth.


In the case of McLaren it's not important if they have used the infos in their car or not. They have had the infos, so I think it's OK that they get a
punishment.

Unfortunatelly is the punishment itself to hard.

[checkered]

I haven't commented in over 40 pages. Oddly this reminds me of lines in a tragic romantic play; and yes we all have a passion verging on the romantic, well maybe the sentimental certainly the heroic.

" Virtue itself turns to vice, being misapplied; And vice sometimes by action dignified. "

" Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things; Some shall be pardon'd and some punished: For there was never a story of more woe. "

Romeo and Juliet - William Shakespeare

While I can

certainly sympathise with your emotion about this whole affair, I'm afraid there's more to come. This, I guess is the very latest and oh, what controversy will this generate, I dare not imagine. But what's done is done and in the end the decision to go forward with this was theirs alone and very deliberate, even unprovoked, at that:

Almost 300 people have signed a "declaration of reasonable doubt", which they hope will prompt further research into the issue. ... "I subscribe to the group theory. I don't think anybody could do it on their own." ... "How did he become so familiar with all things Italian so that even obscure details ... are accurate?" the group adds. ... "It's a legitimate question, it has a mystery at its centre and intellectual discussion will bring us closer to that centre. That's not to say we will answer anything, that's not the point. It is, of course, to question."

Pray despair not on my behalf nor thine, sir,
for I shall forthwith betray a jester at play on thy concerns.
A bard quot'd hast a fool tempt'd,
whilst the want of a device towards an endeavor leaves him undeterr'd,
a vice to a virtue turn.
- For what else a maketh a fool into a jester but faults employ'd?
Make haste and clicketh below,
lest left unreveal'd,
a pun's wine from vinegar can’t be told.

Aimeth here, aimeth well

[Scuderia_Russ]

I also disagree that Mclaren's car - from a design view point - has benifited from the information at all.

You have no idea a) The extent of what information McLaren have and b) how they have really used it. Just because their front wings aren't the same for example doesn't mean they haven't been using this info for a long time.

At the end of the day, what a few Mclaren employees have done was morally wrong,

Only a few?

I've seen a few posts also criticising Ron Dennis, some implying that he knew all along and "yeah right, only those four empolyees knew", Ron Dennis loves F1, but first and foremost he values his own integrity, always has done, and always will do.

I'm not being funny but do you know him?

When Ron Dennis tipped off the FIA about the emails and text messages (the only conclusive proof that any wrong doing was done remember) he effectively sealed his teams fate, he would have know that (maybe he hoped he'd recieve a lesser penalty as a result) but for him to do that shows more balls than others in his position, and more honesty, transparacy, intergrity (call it what you will) than most others.

With Alonso blackmailing him since God knows when about going public with this infor mation he had no choice but to go public before someone else did it for him making him look even more out of touch and not in control of the organisation.

[millerjam]

I think Pat Symonds out it pretty well the other day at Spa when asked about the seriousness of McLaren having Ferrari'e engineering drawings, which basically alluded to a drawing is pretty useless unless the poeple in posession of it know how to use it's contents.
At the end of the day, it's not "spying" or "stealing", they just happened to be given some data by a disgruntled employee from a rival team and got caught. So what if they used it, anyone else would.
I'm pretty sick of the whole situation to be honest, I couldn't even be bothered to go the pub on Sunday to watch the GP, even though it was Spa.
I think the saddest thing to come out of this is that F1 has got to a point where the McLaren scandal or whatever you want to call it, can completely overshadow the sport as a whole, so much so that people forget what's going on on the track. Doesn't really say much about the state of F1 nowadays.
I think people in the sport need to get over it, in fact we all need to get over it, the fact is that it isn't as bad as it seems, and get on with racing, because if they don't then even more stuff is going to get dragged out, like the McLaren Renault complaint (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62512), which is probably just the tip of the iceberg if some of things I've read on this site (like the Raikonnen and Salo comments) are actually going on and will damge the sport even further.
F1 could probably learn a thing or two from the NFL in the US about PR techniques, a coach just got caught spying on another team last weekend, and within 3 days he was fined and the team was penalised and not another word has been said or written about it and everyone could look forward to the ext weekend of games.
The whole thing has been poorly handled and has left a rather bitter taste in my mouth as to the double standards that the governing body of the sport use in assessing stuff like this. I don't mind watching a processional race, because at least I can appreciate the technology, but I can't stand a sports event that doesn't have the same rules for everyone.

[Vasco]

quick question: has mike coughlan not officially been fired by mclaren? He could resume his duties at mclaren and help develop the MP4-23...

[FLC]

He is officially suspended, not fired. According to a member of the forum its possible that McLaren are waiting for proof before they will fire him, so that he won't have grounds for a law suit. An explanation I personally find funny as the man officially confessed in court and publicly apologized, not to mention that the team has already officially declared him guilty in different PRs.

I guess it's hard for some people to acknowledge the fact that he is not the only one who stunk. The myth of RD and McLaren's honesty and integrity refuses to die, even after something like this. But they forget that "the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

Check my post one page back, second from the top.

[mikep99]

I guess it's hard for some people to acknowledge the fact that he is not the only one who stunk. The myth of RD and McLaren's honesty and integrity refuses to die, even after something like this. But they forget that "the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

Check my post one page back, second from the top.

[Rob W]

He is officially suspended, not fired. According to a member of the forum its possible that McLaren are waiting for proof before they will fire him, so that he won't have grounds for a law suit...

Yeah, that was me. I didn't realise any of the legal process thus far had come out publicly (perhaps the Italian stuff, possibly still open to appeal, might not be accepted in British employment law). McLaren, especially under British law, would be making sure they do everything right to oust Coulghan properly. Notwithstanding that he might be of use to them and Ferrari in strengthening the Stepney case.

He has been suspended for months, since the day McLaren found out about this and hasn't been able to set foot there. It's not as though he's been coming into work and continuing on as normal.

Rob W

[tinhouse]

I don't post here much because I rarely feel I can add anything to discussions between people who know so much more than I do!

Personally I'm saddened by all this - not least from the fact that Ron Dennis seems to have been guilty of either astonishing naivety or total dishonesty. Given the way he responded to Alonso's ultimatum you'd have to guess it's the former. But both FA & RD are people I've much admired in the past and I'm really disappointed to find both of them seem to be such flawed people.

The reason I'm posting is to pass on some scurrilous rumours. I wouldn't normally pass on gossip. but as this is from a source that was already linking the Spyker deal to an Indian GP getting the green light so I guess it might be reliable. Believe it or don't, I guess.

Part 1 is that JB, as suggested elsewhere, is rumoured to be the likely candiate for no. 2 driver at McLaren in 08. Given the way his career is going he's certainly not going to give anyone any trouble. Personally I'd be very glad to see JB in a decent car. although I think teaming him up with the guy who usurped him as the UK press's golden boy might still give a few headaches.

The more potent suggestion is that someone very closely connected to LH has been quietly stirring things up behind the scenes. I think you can guess who that might be, and how he might want to manipulate the situation to project Lewis into the position of undisputed McLaren No. 1. There's no suggestion that LH was party to any of the dodgy dealings, more that he's cashing in on the fall-out from it.

As with all gossip, it sounds plausible enough. I guess we'll have to wait & see (probably a long time for that second bit, if true, to come out in the open ...)

[Carlos]

In many organizations the top management has absolutely no idea exactly what middle management and junior management are doing. Smile cheerily at the top man every morning with a wide smile. Don't attract the spotlight but go along with whatever; including what informal knowledge of the competition that comes along. As we all know, every team has a small espionage team. In the days when the aluminum monocoque was the new thing, the first man who learned from a supplier or went through a competing team's scrap bin and found out that the sheet used was 18g duraluminum was a star. Having these guys down the hall gives the entire organization a kind of permission. Middle management doesn't pass anything up to top mamagement until it's a proven sucess then the whole team shines, maybe still being a little vaque about where the info came from. Job applicants are always interviewing and hinting they have valuable knowledge. Resumes show who they are, what they might know and everybody knows everybody in the industry. Interviewers ferret out whether the info is patented or potected. It goes on and on.

Last year someone tried to sell Coca Cola's formula to Pepsi.
In the 70's Coca Cola was kicked out of India for a few years because they would not give their formula to the government when they were "licensing." Really. It happened.

It is difficult to imagine Ron Dennis did not know the flow of information...but possible he was out of the loop or kept out of the loop. Middle management may not have kept senior managenment informed. Mr M Coughlan won't be the only one let go from McLaren, several others, in different departments will be fired or sacrificed to show that McLaren's integrity has been restored, better to do a mass firing than prolong the situation. The espionage team has probably been let loose inside the office and are dissappointed that they can't file expense reports for travel and lodging and know they must turn up a few names.

Sounds like something written by Graham Greene, doesn't it?

Tinhouse welcome, a new voice and viewpoint is always embraced. We all have an expertise or enthusiam that enriches the forum.

[mini696]

The thing that gets me is the lack of consistancy.

In April this year two Ferrari employees were convicted (suspended sentence) in an Italian court of supplying documents to Toyota. This happened 5 years ago which resulted in Toyota and Ferrari having almost identical cars in 2003.

McLarens chief designer Nick Tombasis went to Ferrari that year Ferrari used a zero keel for the first time...

Where is the line drawn for what information is confidential?

Where is the line drawn for fines and removal from championships?

[RacingManiac]

As far as designer migrating teams, they can't take hardcopy of stuff with them, non-disclosure agreement would make sure of that. But anything they can take with their head is fair game. They can say "this is what I did with McLaren and I'd expect this kind of result", and subsequently Ferrari(or in any other scenario you choose), will make their own version of the contraption, and develop their own result. You can't take the experience out of the people, or else there is no point going from one work to another or for another company to poach you, but the people cannot take what data that legitimately the property of another organization with them....

True for F1 or any other organization in the world....

[scarbs]

In April this year two Ferrari employees were convicted (suspended sentence) in an Italian court of supplying documents to Toyota. This happened 5 years ago which resulted in Toyota and Ferrari having almost identical cars in 2003.

The ex ferrari enginners brought some old windtunnel software with them, not the full designs for the Ferrari. This case was dealt with adequately by the italian authorities. The current case involves CURRENT Ferrari staff providing current data to McLaren, which is not the same thing

McLarens chief designer Nick Tombasis went to Ferrari that year Ferrari used a zero keel for the first time...

Tombasis was at Ferrari before he joined McLaren, his return and the adoption of zero keel could hardly be described as copying, as most teams have the set up and Ferraris version varies greatly in detail to McLarens