Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[ME4ME]

These rules where crafted by the teams manufactures and the FIA together

Yes, and that's why manufacturers like Mercedes and Ferrari who pushed forward this PU-formula need to take responsibility as well, and ensure all teams are equipped with reasonable engines and do battle with the actual F1 team instead.

As for the current situation - I certainly can sympathize with Ferrari as well, they want to win so badly right now, they don't need another competitor. I hope Red Bull can swallow their pride for now, and accept the lastest 2015 engine spec for next year (Ferrari still got tokens to spend this year!) together with good support and the correct Shell fuel. If they can make a deal so they get 1-year old engines for 2016,17 and 18 until they can find another supplier that would be great. I personally don't think that after 2016 there will be much gains and thus over time PU-performance will converge to the same level and Red Bull can be back at the front. To be honest, I think if they put their minds to it, they can do wonders with a 2015 spec unit even if it's 30 hp down on the rest. Reliability alone will mean a big big improvement in points compared to this year.

[toraabe]

Red Bull pretty much shot themselves in the foot with their public outcries. Who the hell would want to give them an engine next year after their continuous bashing of Renault this year?

Yes, we know the engine isn't that great, no need to continuously bring it up every 5 minutes like a cry baby.

I think they will leave the sport, and I believe it's all their own doing. If they had a little more humility and sense, they could have come out of this much better than they have. They simply could have done it all behind closed doors and just announced that because the engine didn't meet specific performance related contractual obligations, they are terminating the contract with Renault. But they didn't, and now they have to deal with the consequences.

If you look at it in a strategic manner RB did everything completely wrong. Neither Merc or Ferrari want a customer that is openly criticizing their products in media. Renault got tired of it called it the day, and will probably together with help with partner Mercedes get the necessary gains to make Renault as competitive as Ferrari Red bull.. who cares...

[ScottB]

Ultimately, if they want out, it's going to cost a lot.

Though I'd imagine there'd be buyers, both teams have great cars this year, and must be working away on next year's car. Buying either team, then quickly negotiating an engine deal (might be easier without RBR's 'baggage' perhaps?) could be an option? If not there'd be a feeding frenzy trying to snap up their staff by the other teams.


I guess it depends whether dropping a possible half billion dollars to pack up and go home is preferable to carrying on with a Ferrari customer deal. The fact that's even being mentioned as an option suggests the deal with VW was nonsense; if they'd agreed to sell up in 2017, they wouldn't be threatening to shut everything down at the end of this season.

[FoxHound]

. I wouldn't bet my hand that he was answering the question specifically talking about Mateschitz and perhaps not knowing if perhaps Helmut and Horner approached other Mercedes higher up like Dieter Zetsche. I'm just speculating here. When watching Lauda, I don't always get the feeling he is actually answering questions as a Mercedes employee or as a personal view / consultant / ex F1 racer or RTL moderator.

You mean Lauda whom owns part of the team? He'll have a hotline straight to Zetsche's bedroom! Lauda is in the loop, to assert otherwise would suggest Zetsche will cut out his own GP team in making supply decisions. That's about as far as stretch of an assertion as Nissan-AMG's.

[ME4ME]

Renault got tired of it called it the day, and will probably together with help with partner Mercedes get the necessary gains to make Renault as competitive as Ferrari Red bull.. who cares...

Now let's not twist stuff just the way we want .. Red Bull called quits on Renault because they got let down over and over again.

As for who cares. That's just a retarded statement, I'm not even sorry to use that word. I mean come on, many people do, it's one of the absolute most capable teams on the grid, adding a lot of value to F1. Losing them, and Toro Rosso would be a massive loss, as Toro Rosso is the biggest feeder team for young talent in F1.

[KeiKo403]

Can I just put this out there as crazy as it might seem to some.
Lotus is going down the pan and Renault are looking to buy the team back to enter as a proper works team.
Red Bull need to be a works team or quit. Could they be threatening to quit so the team is on the market so to speak so Renault could buy that team which is probably a better investment as that team will have more chance of winning compared to Lotus?
See like I said...crazy!

[Juzh]

Red bull.. who cares...

Yeah, foock them right? It's not like they field 2 solid teams not strapped for cash (one of whom spends the most of any team actually) in one way or another, while brining just about the only talent worth mentioning into the sport filled with maldonados, gutierez's, stevenses, chiltons... Lets go ahead and replace them with merc equipped manors, hrts and caterhams who suck and will remain to suck for as long as they remain on the grid - no matter the PU. That will make F1 so much better.

[dans79]

Yes, and that's why manufacturers like Mercedes and Ferrari who pushed forward this PU-formula need to take responsibility as well, and ensure all teams are equipped with reasonable engines and do battle with the actual F1 team instead.

F1 is a competition, not a social construct to make everyone fell all warm and fuzy inside. Mercedes & Ferrari are doing exactly what they should be doing, and that is making sure they don't give away a competitive advantage unless it benefits them in some way.

[Manoah2u]

Don't bet on it.

The Mercedes deal imho was a trick to get more intel on the Merc engine from Renault. it's wayy to suspicious that Lotus goes just 1 year with Merc power and then Renault buys them back after years of supplying them engines. There's something going on in the background of Lotus and it has been as far back as they originally 'exited' back after crashgate.

Renault shifted their attention to RedBull as at that moment, it was the winning formula with the positivity they needed and frankly, nothing could have gone wrong there. but the RedBull might is over - nothing lasts forever. Personally, i think RedBull and Renault went into bad weather for several causes of which we read just some bits and pieces. The relationship between RedBull and Renault is sour and over. And can you really blame them?

Renault knows it needs a fresh start and they're doing exactly that. A fresh new start as a works team at the right time, right before renewals of regulations which surely will favour them.

I'd say they don't want a deal with RedBull because Redbull will stay RedBull - a big brand that will take attention away from Renault. I think Renault wants to win with their name on the car, not with RedBull on it. RedBull wants to win with RedBull on the car. it's as simple as that. It just doesn't gonna work because both want to walk around parading, but there can be only 1 clear winner.

If a Redbull car wins, people don't think Renault. Renault wants what Mercedes has. What Ferrari has. If Ferrari wins; it's all ferrari. So renault wants a works team so they get the credit.

Lotus is the ideal team to pick up; it's their old team, there's lots of knowledge, they've gained lots of information from merc engines, and probably, Renault is able to fetch some team members from other teams with important roles.

What i'm curious about is what drivers Renault is eyeing for 2017. Grosjean is gone to HAAS, so that's a goner. I can't expect them to take a washed-up Vergne. I would think they're eyeing for Ricciardo, Verstappen and Alonso. I could even see Flavio Briatore there. Imagine that.

[zeph]

Like I posted earlier today, RBR is unlikely to quit:

Dietrich Mateschitz has been walking in the Austrian woods and has been considering pulling out of F1 but that is unlikely to happen because, in exchange for large sums of extra prize money from the Formula One group, Red Bull agreed to stay in the sport for 10 years (until 2020) and there is believed to be a penalty scheme, which means that the penalty for pulling out reduces from $1 billion by $100 million per year. This means that Red Bull can walk away from the sport if the company is willing to pay the Formula One group $500 million.
Given the bill, it is best for Mateschitz to keep his money and make the most of the mess the team is in and try not to screw up so monumentally in the future. The other option to save face would be for Mateschitz to dig even deeper and buy control of Delta Topco, the parent company of the Formula One group. He could then sell his teams without being red in the face. Bernie Ecclestone would probably like that as Matechitz would no doubt keep him on…

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/09 ... rom-japan/

If that is indeed correct, it would cost him almost as much to pull out as to carry on

[ScottB]

Don't bet on it.

The Mercedes deal imho was a trick to get more intel on the Merc engine from Renault. it's wayy to suspicious that Lotus goes just 1 year with Merc power and then Renault buys them back after years of supplying them engines. There's something going on in the background of Lotus and it has been as far back as they originally 'exited' back after crashgate.

Renault shifted their attention to RedBull as at that moment, it was the winning formula with the positivity they needed and frankly, nothing could have gone wrong there. but the RedBull might is over - nothing lasts forever. Personally, i think RedBull and Renault went into bad weather for several causes of which we read just some bits and pieces. The relationship between RedBull and Renault is sour and over. And can you really blame them?

Renault knows it needs a fresh start and they're doing exactly that. A fresh new start as a works team at the right time, right before renewals of regulations which surely will favour them.

I'd say they don't want a deal with RedBull because Redbull will stay RedBull - a big brand that will take attention away from Renault. I think Renault wants to win with their name on the car, not with RedBull on it. RedBull wants to win with RedBull on the car. it's as simple as that. It just doesn't gonna work because both want to walk around parading, but there can be only 1 clear winner.

If a Redbull car wins, people don't think Renault. Renault wants what Mercedes has. What Ferrari has. If Ferrari wins; it's all ferrari. So renault wants a works team so they get the credit.

Lotus is the ideal team to pick up; it's their old team, there's lots of knowledge, they've gained lots of information from merc engines, and probably, Renault is able to fetch some team members from other teams with important roles.

What i'm curious about is what drivers Renault is eyeing for 2017. Grosjean is gone to HAAS, so that's a goner. I can't expect them to take a washed-up Vergne. I would think they're eyeing for Ricciardo, Verstappen and Alonso. I could even see Flavio Briatore there. Imagine that.

Except of course that to follow your logic, Honda had access to a years worth of data on the Merc engine, doesn't seem to have done them much good.

It'd be a whole lot easier to try and recruit a couple Merc powertrain engineers than to go through an elaborate charade like you're describing!

[WaikeCU]

I don't think they will leave the sport. I think they will have to settle for something next season and in the meantime look for a new partnership. It'll be kind of like Williams on the back of the 1997 season, when Renault left the sport and they have to settle for Mecachrome engines, which were rebadged Renault engines and then signed a partnership with BMW in 2000. I think they'll manage something. Who knows we might get Red Bull-Ilmor or something like that for next season.

[djos]

Last season didn't Renault supply Lotus and Caterham? highly likely that I could be wrong here but I think I remember an interview with one of those teams on Sky where they said the engine's weren't giving the same output as the RBR and even STR PU's.

If this is the case then surely RBR and being treated just the same now as a customer to how they as Renault Works Team treated Renault customers last year.

RedBull have never been the Renault works team, only preferred team.

Horner was interviewed during the Japanese weekend sky broadcast and told us that one of the reasons they are so upset with Renault is that Renault will not share their development roadmap with RedBull and never have, even in the V8 era.

This would be extremely annoying because RedBull are not able to know what exactly Renault are doing to become competitive again and therefore they have no confidence in Renault.

[FW17]

Last season didn't Renault supply Lotus and Caterham? highly likely that I could be wrong here but I think I remember an interview with one of those teams on Sky where they said the engine's weren't giving the same output as the RBR and even STR PU's.

If this is the case then surely RBR and being treated just the same now as a customer to how they as Renault Works Team treated Renault customers last year.

RedBull have never been the Renault works team, only preferred team.

Horner was interviewed during the Japanese weekend sky broadcast and told us that one of the reasons they are so upset with Renault is that Renault will not share their development roadmap with RedBull and never have, even in the V8 era.

This would be extremely annoying because RedBull are not able to know what exactly Renault are doing to become competitive again and therefore they have no confidence in Renault.

Renault thinks Total and Infinity money are their contribution to Red Bull coffers

[Juzh]

Last season didn't Renault supply Lotus and Caterham? highly likely that I could be wrong here but I think I remember an interview with one of those teams on Sky where they said the engine's weren't giving the same output as the RBR and even STR PU's.

If this is the case then surely RBR and being treated just the same now as a customer to how they as Renault Works Team treated Renault customers last year.

RedBull have never been the Renault works team, only preferred team.

Horner was interviewed during the Japanese weekend sky broadcast and told us that one of the reasons they are so upset with Renault is that Renault will not share their development roadmap with RedBull and never have, even in the V8 era.

This would be extremely annoying because RedBull are not able to know what exactly Renault are doing to become competitive again and therefore they have no confidence in Renault.

Renault thinks Total and Infinity money are their contribution to Red Bull coffers

They do?