Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FoxHound]

Infiniti and Total do pay Red Bull and not Renault and the affiliation is directly contributable to Renault.

[FW17]

So you see Infinity signage on next years Renault/Lotus cars?

[FoxHound]

So you see Infinity signage on next years Renault/Lotus cars?

We saw total shift to Red Bull the moment Renault sold Enstone.
Besides, contractually, Total will not be a lubricant for either Ferrari or Mercedes PU's.
So if they are retained by Red Bull, then the PU performance would be marginalised running their lubricant instead of the official type.

And infiniti are affiliated to Renault commercially.

[alexx_88]

Not necessarily, Fox. Williams have done this trick last year, they were running Petrobras as a sponsor, but Petronas fuel and lubricants.

I presume Infiniti leaving RB depends on their current contract. I don't see Red Bull allowing Infiniti to just leave. It is possible they'll be included in the Renault-Red Bull negotiations though.

[FoxHound]

Not necessarily, Fox. Williams have done this trick last year, they were running Petrobras as a sponsor, but Petronas fuel and lubricants.

I presume Infiniti leaving RB depends on their current contract. I don't see Red Bull allowing Infiniti to just leave. It is possible they'll be included in the Renault-Red Bull negotiations though.

That's a possibility for sure. But it's fraught with issues.

As for infiniti, it was Red Bull that kicked Renault o the kerb. I'm pretty sure during the protracted negotiations for severance infiniti and total were topics. So we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[gandharva]

Like I posted earlier today, RBR is unlikely to quit:

Dietrich Mateschitz has been walking in the Austrian woods and has been considering pulling out of F1 but that is unlikely to happen because, in exchange for large sums of extra prize money from the Formula One group, Red Bull agreed to stay in the sport for 10 years (until 2020) and there is believed to be a penalty scheme, which means that the penalty for pulling out reduces from $1 billion by $100 million per year. This means that Red Bull can walk away from the sport if the company is willing to pay the Formula One group $500 million.
Given the bill, it is best for Mateschitz to keep his money and make the most of the mess the team is in and try not to screw up so monumentally in the future. The other option to save face would be for Mateschitz to dig even deeper and buy control of Delta Topco, the parent company of the Formula One group. He could then sell his teams without being red in the face. Bernie Ecclestone would probably like that as Matechitz would no doubt keep him on…

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/09 ... rom-japan/

If that is indeed correct, it would cost him almost as much to pull out as to carry on

In a world of unicorns and rainbows where running a team costs nothing? RBR spends >$300 million per year for F1! TR is rumored to spend 1/3 of that. So ~$100 million.

5x300 + 5x100 vs. 500 for pulling out... Please do the math...

[turbof1]

Nothing stops them from making the team entirely independent from the Red Bull company, stop paying their bills and force the teams into administration. The team's assets will be sold to pay supplier debt and what's left can go to Bernie.

I'm afraid this is no mere threat. They will pull out if they don't get an equal PU.

[Phil]

5x300 + 5x100 vs. 500 for pulling out... Please do the math...

I'd also add that a team that is no longer running at the front will have additional problems securing sponsors or the same level of investment from them, as it will be to keep highly experienced and valuable engineers who's position have become less important, to leaving to more successful teams or seeking other challenges outside F1.

It's just the way it goes; Success attracts success, failure... well failure. RedBull's PR is also limited if they are well within the midfield team. So not winning over the multiple years could have a bigger impact than can be easily accounted for in black and white numbers like price money etc.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to find that RedBull is bluffing to a degree in regards to pulling out - who in their right mind in their position wouldn't? I'd do it exactly the same and I do think the sport as a whole, and that includes the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari, will have to address how much worth their success is without the necessary competition and if the sport continues to damage itself to a point we might actually have 3 car teams one day or a 2-tier championship (which we already kind of have).

***EDIT; I think much hinges on if Mercedes and Ferrari can convince RedBull that they will be competitive enough with an older spec engine and that change is around the corner in 2017 with newer engine regulations, but on the other hand; if the sport allows for new spec engines vs old spec engines, it does beg the question who in their right mind and with the goal of winning would sign up for this. If we allow this now, how will it ever change? RedBull will be damned to ever receive a competitive engine, as Renault, soon to be a works-team, and Honda with McLaren (assuming they'll end up competitive) will have no more reason to supply them with competitive engines if Mercedes and Ferrari aren't already doing that. The success of any team will hinge on the fact it requires a full backing by an engine supplier and that too looks dark, given with these regulations, no one is going to enter in their right mind in the first place. This would be no different than having two sets of tires for teams; good tires vs bad ones and some teams forced to run bad ones and remain uncompetitive. /ENDEDIT

I see RedBull as a huge contributor to the sport. We might dislike their petulant behavior but they have brought a lot to the sport we love. They are bar the only ones that afford to give young drivers a chance without the requirement of sponsorship and they bring lots of money too. Adding to that, their mentality is nothing short of exemplary. When I visited Spa in 2011 - I won some paddock tickets for Friday - and RedBull was the only team that actually had open doors to all in their motor-homes. As the drivers were downstairs having lunch, guests were welcome to join on the upper level. This is very different to, i.e. Ferrari where one didn't even dream of entering unless you had a press badge or something. Sadly, it was the only time I was inside the paddock, so perhaps we were just lucky, but the hospitality and openness this team showed was nothing like what the other teams offered - and it's been something other people, namely F1 press people, have commented on as well in the past. So, not really relevant in that sense, but just a nice memory that just popped up into my head while writing this post. I think F1 would be a worse place without them.

[zeph]

If that is indeed correct, it would cost him almost as much to pull out as to carry on

In a world of unicorns and rainbows where running a team costs nothing? RBR spends >$300 million per year for F1! TR is rumored to spend 1/3 of that. So ~$100 million.

5x300 + 5x100 vs. 500 for pulling out... Please do the math...

Golly, math. Me no good with math. And I didn't know that prize money and sponsorship are not a part of math.

[FoxHound]

Nothing stops them from making the team entirely independent from the Red Bull company, stop paying their bills and force the teams into administration. The team's assets will be sold to pay supplier debt and what's left can go to Bernie.

I'm afraid this is no mere threat. They will pull out if they don't get an equal PU.

Then rather they go. Because these sorts of threats are crass, unsporting and a total slap in the face of all the employees that work for Red Bull and Torro Rosso.

[ME4ME]

They have already said they will put the teams to work on other projects if they were to leave F1. No slap in the face of any employee etc, no official source say's anything about administration. Wishing for doomsday scenario to come true to bash RB some more?

[turbof1]

Nothing stops them from making the team entirely independent from the Red Bull company, stop paying their bills and force the teams into administration. The team's assets will be sold to pay supplier debt and what's left can go to Bernie.

I'm afraid this is no mere threat. They will pull out if they don't get an equal PU.

Then rather they go. Because these sorts of threats are crass, unsporting and a total slap in the face of all the employees that work for Red Bull and Torro Rosso.

While you are (relatively...) right on the moral side, I will tell you that F1 will go down to the gutter along Red Bull. Too big to fail. We are already on critical grid numbers.

Besides, put yourself in their shoes. Realise no matter how much resources they throw at F1, they will not come out on top simply because they are handicapped by others. Granted, Red Bull is highly demanding and highly critical, but nobody, not even you, would settle for a subtop role when the input capital, manpower and knowhow is worthy of a championship contender.

Again, I also want to repeat that as how the rules now stand is that Ferrari has to give the lastest PU they have next year if they choose to supply Red Bull. Ferrari can only deliver a 2015 spec PU if all teams unanimously vote for a regulation change.

[dans79]

While you are (relatively...) right on the moral side, I will tell you that F1 will go down to the gutter along Red Bull. Too big to fail. We are already on critical grid numbers.

Maybe it should go down the gutter then, and something better will rise from it's ashes. Giving in to demands like this won't work in the long run anyways, once one team gets away with it more will try.

Besides, put yourself in their shoes. Realise no matter how much resources they throw at F1, they will not come out on top simply because they are handicapped by others. Granted, Red Bull is highly demanding and highly critical, but nobody, not even you, would settle for a subtop role when the input capital, manpower and know how is worthy of a championship contender.

Disagree, they could build their own engine, nothing is stopping them from doing that.

[turbof1]

While you are (relatively...) right on the moral side, I will tell you that F1 will go down to the gutter along Red Bull. Too big to fail. We are already on critical grid numbers.

Maybe it should go down the gutter then, and something better will rise from it's ashes. Giving in to demands like this won't work in the long run anyways, once one team gets away with it more will try.

Besides, put yourself in their shoes. Realise no matter how much resources they throw at F1, they will not come out on top simply because they are handicapped by others. Granted, Red Bull is highly demanding and highly critical, but nobody, not even you, would settle for a subtop role when the input capital, manpower and know how is worthy of a championship contender.

Disagree, they could build their own engine, nothing is stopping them from doing that.

Aside of the gi-normous investment needed (they simply are not an engine manufacturer), there's no time for that. It would take them atleast 2 to even 4 years to develop a PU that is competitive. Assuming of course they attract the right people and necessary knowhow within a few months (which is just not realistic).

I do agree that perhaps this is a chance to rebuild the sport, if it crashes down. It would allow the FIA to step in and rewrite everything.

[FoxHound]

You say ginormous investment Turbo, but is it that much more than what they currently spend on 2 teams?
Cosworth could manage for years too.

Red Bull also have a mysterious building with 40 staff called 'building 9', with Mario Ilien on the books.
These are all indicators to some sort of engineering project wouldn't you say?