Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[turbof1]

You say ginormous investment Turbo, but is it that much more than what they currently spend on 2 teams?
Cosworth could manage for years too.

Red Bull also have a mysterious building with 40 staff called 'building 9', with Mario Ilien on the books.
These are all indicators to some sort of engineering project wouldn't you say?

In short: yes. Because unlike Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault, who already have made the factory set up costs a long time ago, Red Bull literally has to built that up. We speak about a billion or more for starting up and development. Very probably a lot more, because Mercedes has spent that on development alone across 4 years.

And cosworth? Really? I'm sorry to say, but the last time they entered F1 it was a farce. In an age when development was frozen they still had an inferior engine. Red Bull is never going to settle for that, which means you can't expect that their expenses will be the same as cosworth, who again are already beyond the start up costs of building a factory, finding the right people and building up the knowhow.

I much earlier see Mercedes delivering 2016 PUs to Red Bull while the manufacturer team drives around with 2015 PUs, then Red Bull building their own PUs.

If I had to bet on what not only Red Bull would do, but us all are going to do, it is that we all move to Le Mans. Red Bull because it's a great alternative with quite a bit more aerodynamic freedom, and us because F1 will be dead in the water.

[FoxHound]

Why was Cosworth a farce turbo?

They developed their engine to rev and develop its power at a point above the looming rev limit. They would have to change the entire engine concept to become competitive again. Not likely.

[turbof1]

Why was Cosworth a farce turbo?

They developed their engine to rev and develop its power at a point above the looming rev limit. They would have to change the entire engine concept to become competitive again. Not likely.

Because they were uncompetitive - down on power and higher fuel consumption, compared to the rest.

Maybe farce was a bad word choice. They simply aren't backed up by a multi-national, and they did the best they could. At the end of the day however, what counts is that they were uncompetitive. You say Cosworth managed for years, but cosworth never had the means to be little more then an engine on the grid which couldn't compete properly due lack of capital and resources. I don't even think it's in any way a relevant comparison, because what Red Bull wants (and actually owes it itself) is not the same at all that Cosworth brought or otherwise could bring to the table.

[ME4ME]

If I had to bet on what not only Red Bull would do, but us all are going to do, it is that we all move to Le Mans. Red Bull because it's a great alternative with quite a bit more aerodynamic freedom, and us because F1 will be dead in the water.

But then the question arises, which engine will they use in Le Mans / WEC

[turbof1]

If I had to bet on what not only Red Bull would do, but us all are going to do, it is that we all move to Le Mans. Red Bull because it's a great alternative with quite a bit more aerodynamic freedom, and us because F1 will be dead in the water.

But then the question arises, which engine will they use in Le Mans / WEC

I was hoping to avoid that question .

It's highly assumptious from me of course, but I believe one of the current manufacturers will probably deliver engines. Red Bull might infact be willing to have a customer-engine, because lmp might provide enough oppertunities concerning aerodynamics to compensate shortcomings in engine power. Again, highly assumptious so please don't shoot me .

[FoxHound]

The point I'm making is that Cosworth were deemed fit for F1.
The costs of doing so are nowhere near a billion.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. They run 2 teams!
What is an engine programme if they ditch Torro Rosso?
They have the money, and who knows what Red Bull are up to in that building 9.
If they took the hit and built there own engines I'd take back everything I've said about this team.

Instead, they threaten to quit because they can't get the very latest engine they had no part in making or right in receiving.
And this is very important now, if you don't make engines, does this mean you should automatically be entitled to Ferrari or Merc unit?
That is extraordinarily arrogant and short sighted.

Literally all their money goes to aero and chassis development. Yet Ferrari and Mercedes have to spend 100s of millions to design, build and supply engines as well as the rest to create a GP team.


Now imagine being a red bull employee and reading Mateshitz stating Ferrari are "playing games" in engine supply after ditching Renault, and that Mercedes had not even been approached regarding supply.
Wow. Simply it would appear Red Bull are looking to corner themselves into no supply at all.

And if that happens Red Bull exit stage left.

Screw the workers and screw F1, it's no longer of use to brand Red Bull.

To flout employees future as they have, to ditch the previous supplier and then demand conditions on future suppliers or threaten an exit is simply disgusting.

[turbof1]

The point I'm making is that Cosworth were deemed fit for F1.
The costs of doing so are nowhere near a billion.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. They run 2 teams!
What is an engine programme if they ditch Torro Rosso?
They have the money, and who knows what Red Bull are up to in that building 9.
If they took the hit and built there own engines I'd take back everything I've said about this team.

Instead, they threaten to quit because they can't get the very latest engine they had no part in making or right in receiving.
And this is very important now, if you don't make engines, does this mean you should automatically be entitled to Ferrari or Merc unit?
That is extraordinarily arrogant and short sighted.

Literally all their money goes to aero and chassis development. Yet Ferrari and Mercedes have to spend 100s of millions to design, build and supply engines as well as the rest to create a GP team.


Now imagine being a red bull employee and reading Mateshitz stating Ferrari are "playing games" in engine supply after ditching Renault, and that Mercedes had not even been approached regarding supply.
Wow. Simply it would appear Red Bull are looking to corner themselves into no supply at all.

And if that happens Red Bull exit stage left.

Screw the workers and screw F1, it's no longer of use to brand Red Bull.

To flout employees future as they have, to ditch the previous supplier and then demand conditions on future suppliers or threaten an exit is simply disgusting.

The point is not relevant since Red Bull is not in F1 to be deemed fit - it's in there to compete at the top. Developing your own engine for that will cost (much) more the a billion. You can't compare the cost of 2 very much operational teams to starting to build your own engines. Apples and oranges.

Can they do it? Well, I think they can in theory. However, they are not going to. It means they need at the very least 2-4 years to get a competitive engine into the sport and that's not worth waiting for. It'll also probably mean the company's gross share of profits will sink into a project that's only there to be at the top of F1. Other manufacturers can atleast use the PU to promote their business on the markets, and can even apply the tech in their road cars. Red Bull sells drinks; the engine itself would be HCLR: High Cost Low Return.

Note that I'm not saying they are automatically entitled to having the best engine. It's Ferrari and Mercedes their physical and intellectual property so they very much have every right to deny Red Bull that. I'm only explaining why they aren't going to built their own engines, and what it'll mean if Red Bull leaves. And that's the other side of the coin: Red Bull is perfectly entitled to not to play a meaningless role in the midfield and leave the sport. It's their right. Being a customer team also means they can ditch their current supplier if they think it does not meet the demand. That's also their right.

[ME4ME]

...simply disgusting.

And yet you don't flinch to "ditch Toro Rosso".

Yea .. good moral standpoint yourself. What a joke.

[dans79]

Now imagine being a red bull employee and reading Mateshitz stating Ferrari are "playing games" in engine supply after ditching Renault, and that Mercedes had not even been approached regarding supply.
Wow. Simply it would appear Red Bull are looking to corner themselves into no supply at all.

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the reasons RBR is having so many odd reliability issues, is because they are loosing workers left and right. I mean if I was an RBR employee, I would have started looking for a new job a year or more ago, when they started openly talking about quitting.

perfectly entitled to not to play a meaningless role in the midfield and leave the sport. It's their right. Being a customer team also means they can ditch their current supplier if they think it does not meet the demand. That's also their right.

But pretty stupid, when you don't have another one lined up first.

[NL_Fer]

I don't think building an engine, would be very interresting commercially for Redbull. But maybe they are paving the way, for another manufacturer tot enter F1 without much hassle. A brand with money to burn and a desire to market it's sporty image, for example Hyundai. Koreans are smart enough, not to try building a f1 engine in Seoul themselfs.

[turbof1]

But pretty stupid, when you don't have another one lined up first.

Not really. I believe the plan was all along to either find a better option inmediately for next year or ditch F1 all together. They might come across as arrogant, and for a part they are, but they are not stupid: they know exactly what they want and when they want it, and if they don't get it what they'll do.

They can even stay in the sport as a sponsor, who knows. How about a Ferrari with the Red Bull logo on it? Or perhaps convince Mercedes to drop monster in favour for them. Then they're driving with Merc engines after all .

[dans79]

But pretty stupid, when you don't have another one lined up first.

Not really. I believe the plan was all along to either find a better option inmediately for next year or ditch F1 all together.

I have to disagree with the first part. If you want to race, you find another supplier before you alienate your current one. Thus if you can't find a new supplier you still have one.

[Juzh]

Not if cons with staying with the original one outweigh the pros. And in this case they definitely do.

[turbof1]

But pretty stupid, when you don't have another one lined up first.

Not really. I believe the plan was all along to either find a better option inmediately for next year or ditch F1 all together.

I have to disagree with the first part. If you want to race, you find another supplier before you alienate your current one. Thus if you can't find a new supplier you still have one.

They have been harsh against Renault, although you have to admit it was not entirely undeserved either. They came to realisation that it's not worth going further with F1 unless they found another supplier willing to deliver a competitive engine. Terminating the Renault contract is in my eyes their first, very concious, step towards exiting the sport.

It's like Juzh said: both quitting the sport and finding a competitive supply, were better options then to stay with Renault in the sport. It would have been stupid if they intended to stay in the sport despite the chance to be stuck with an engine handicap, but that intend is not there.

[Phil]

I find the fairytale that Redbull could (should) just start building engines highly amusing. They have ZERO expertise in that field. No know-how, no engineers, no facilities... Zip. Zielch. Nada. Meanwhile, we do have 4 engine suppliers with loads of all that. Yes, know-how, decades of experience, facilities. One of them was a prominent supporter of these new complex engines. That particular manufacturer is Renault, the one we are talking about, receiving bad publicity for going backwards, failing and underperforming. They have lost one customer team already and two are about to follow to the point they'll only be a supplier to their own team. Two of the other three engine manufacturers failed miserably too in their first year; one of which had a year extra to follow the others a full year in advance, study closely and come up with something. They too failed miserably, actually are still failing. From those 4 competent manufacturers with facilityies, experience, know-how worth billions, only one came out on top with a significant working package that is both reliable and effecient.

And people seriously think RedBull can just come out with pocket change and do one better in a few months?

And about Cosworth; i suspect these V6T are a little more complex than the old V8s used to be. I think Honda could sing a song about it...