Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[j.yank]

From the pictures above can someone access the physical dimensions of Honda MGU-K comparing to other manufactures MGU-K?

[Abarth]

[...]Yeah.. but the wastegates enter at a poor discharge angle into the exhaust pipe. A textbook mistake. Check out Williams or Torro Rosso for a good entry angle. Hmm.. they also have two wastegates which can be more of a headache that one single one as Renault had learned.[...]

I do not think this is a major concern, since in "normal" race conditions, MGU-H should allow for boost limiting, and not the wastegates.
They are needed for short transient blow-off and for the quali-mode, where the turbine is driven by MGU-H. On the contrary, it looks to me like a good arrangement to still use some of the blowdown energy without building up backpressure in that case.

[ojlopez]

Seems like the exhaust is running kind of hot. The insulation looks all burned in this photo.

That's from some showroom, probably just a reflection (check the other pics for the orange tint)

Looks like typical tempering colors to me not reflection. Also they are visible in every angle.
http://bcdmda.com/gk/SHOP/Tempering_sta ... ithing.JPG

So it has been a couple of hundreds of degrees there (apologies for the non IS units but it was the clearest pic I could find). Doesn't seem too surprising to me.
http://cdn3.volusion.com/wpyhq.jsayd/v/ ... 1382443900

You have to be a bit careful though with the interpretation in terms of temperature. Since what you're seeing is basically the thickness of the oxide skin that is formed at high T (due thin film interference), the colors will shift in temperature with type of alloy used.

Exactly. I work around gas burners and ovens, and when the refractory fails I see all the shades of red, orange and yellow in the steel. And I have seen how metal color changes after being exposed to very high temperatures.

Honda's PU exhaust has indeed seen some high temps.

[PlatinumZealot]

[...]Yeah.. but the wastegates enter at a poor discharge angle into the exhaust pipe. A textbook mistake. Check out Williams or Torro Rosso for a good entry angle. Hmm.. they also have two wastegates which can be more of a headache that one single one as Renault had learned.[...]

I do not think this is a major concern, since in "normal" race conditions, MGU-H should allow for boost limiting, and not the wastegates.
They are needed for short transient blow-off and for the quali-mode, where the turbine is driven by MGU-H. On the contrary, it looks to me like a good arrangement to still use some of the blowdown energy without building up backpressure in that case.

In theory.... But in real life the wastegates are used alot. You can hear them all the while in qually laps. This is enough to have them rputed the best way possible. I think honda will be wise and sort them out for next year.

[tuj]

In theory.... But in real life the wastegates are used alot. You can hear them all the while in qually laps. This is enough to have them rputed the best way possible. I think honda will be wise and sort them out for next year.

I agree. I thought that we wouldn't see waste-gates in '14 except maybe as a backup to the MGU-K. But PZ is right, in real-world transient conditions, the wg is needed more than perhaps originally thought. Also in qualifying, the Merc's and Ferrari's are leaving the waste-gate wide open to reduce back pressure on the ICE and spinning the compressor with just the MGU-H and battery power.

[Abarth]

I do not say that wastegates are not used, but
1. If they open in transient situations, is it really important to have perfect flow conditions for the waste exhaust gas?
2. If they are open in quali mode, isn't it more important that the design allows still blowdown (pulses) energy to be used, something which I have the impression is not that bad solved in Honda design?

[Tommy Cookers]

......in real-world transient conditions, the wg is needed more than perhaps originally thought. Also in qualifying, the Merc's and Ferrari's are leaving the waste-gate wide open to reduce back pressure on the ICE and spinning the compressor with just the MGU-H and battery power.

EDITED (withdrew first version for rethink, with apologies to following poster)

assuming that wide open means reducung exhaust 'back' pressure to nominally ambient
with WG wide open compressor power well exceeds turbine power ie ES/mu-h power is high
this high power limits the duration of the qually mode (because the ES energy is limited and much anyway is used in spooling-up)
so limiting the lap-energy gain (over sustainable lap-energy)

a slightly higher WG pressure reduces or eliminates mu-h power so that the lap-energy gain is higher
because the useable duration of qually mode is now much longer

the above assuming 3-3.5 bar 'boost' and corresponding very high AFR at all powers

[FW17]

Without MGU H power the ICE is going to produce only what the 100kg/h fuel will allow which would be a max of 700 hp (based on pages of the engine thread)

Battery is not sufficient

Over all the engine is not sufficient without the generator mode of MGU H

[Cold Fussion]

Without MGU-H recovery the PU will have max power for 33s a lap. An average lap may be a 1.5 minutes with a 60% WOT meaning 54 seconds of WOT time. So on an average quali lap the MGU-H will have to do some harvesting, which will probably be any time on partial power and over a certain speed (maybe 250/270 km/h?).

[PlatinumZealot]

In theory.... But in real life the wastegates are used alot. You can hear them all the while in qually laps. This is enough to have them rputed the best way possible. I think honda will be wise and sort them out for next year.

I agree. I thought that we wouldn't see waste-gates in '14 except maybe as a backup to the MGU-K. But PZ is right, in real-world transient conditions, the wg is needed more than perhaps originally thought. Also in qualifying, the Merc's and Ferrari's are leaving the waste-gate wide open to reduce back pressure on the ICE and spinning the compressor with just the MGU-H and battery power.

Whoa.. this waste-gate wide open thing stemmed from Tifosi speculation. It was not confirmed. Yes it seems an advatage for some parts of the track but I was not speaking to that aspect though. I was only confirming that I hear the waste-gate noises in the on-board qualification videos. It is a fluttering noise. This is enough evidence that the waste-gate is frequently used. One only has to observe on his own and not be misguided by the journalists.

[PlatinumZealot]

Anyway. Got the Arai Interview. When he said Honda was close to Ferrari he meant the ICE as most people here suspected.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 88708.html

Q. Everything was precipitated when in August said his goal was that the propeller was at the height of Ferrari. Why make such high expectations?

A. I am an engineer, and from that point of view I have access to the data. What happens is that, as a team, then we do not get the expected results. I am honest with the data that I offer, I can prove everything I say, but also understand that if the overall performance does not fit, there are people who think that not telling the truth. When I talked to catch up with Ferrari was referring only to the power of the combustion engine.

[damager21]

I am wondering, what are the possible concessions Honda can get to catch up next season:
1. Carry forward current unused 4 tokens to next season
2. Offer 32 tokens next year instead of 25 tokens
3. 6 days of private pre-season testing

Also do we know which engine manufacturer rejected Honda's request to change their turbo design before summer break?

[mrluke]

In theory.... But in real life the wastegates are used alot. You can hear them all the while in qually laps. This is enough to have them rputed the best way possible. I think honda will be wise and sort them out for next year.

I agree. I thought that we wouldn't see waste-gates in '14 except maybe as a backup to the MGU-K. But PZ is right, in real-world transient conditions, the wg is needed more than perhaps originally thought. Also in qualifying, the Merc's and Ferrari's are leaving the waste-gate wide open to reduce back pressure on the ICE and spinning the compressor with just the MGU-H and battery power.

Whoa.. this waste-gate wide open thing stemmed from Tifosi speculation. It was not confirmed. Yes it seems an advatage for some parts of the track but I was not speaking to that aspect though. I was only confirming that I hear the waste-gate noises in the on-board qualification videos. It is a fluttering noise. This is enough evidence that the waste-gate is frequently used. One only has to observe on his own and not be misguided by the journalists.

....since when do wastegates make fluttering noises?

The exhaust will be louder when they are open as the air will bypass the turbine (heard this a lot on the Ferrari 2014)

[ojlopez]

Is this log-style or tubular?

Log.

Honda must be kicking itself after seeing that Mercedes ditched the log exhaust this season.

[godlameroso]

I am wondering, what are the possible concessions Honda can get to catch up next season:
1. Carry forward current unused 4 tokens to next season
2. Offer 32 tokens next year instead of 25 tokens
3. 6 days of private pre-season testing

Also do we know which engine manufacturer rejected Honda's request to change their turbo design before summer break?

That's very interesting, I do remember them being denied a change to the turbo, perhaps this is the reason they are not competitive this season. Perhaps they already have a solution in place, but they can't implement it until next year.