Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[turbof1]

Well, I reckon they'll do what every 'honest' company would do when their liabilities are much larger than their assets: file for bankruptcy. This says https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0312 ... ED/summary that their net worth is only about £4m, which would make it impossible for Mr E to recoup his 500m. In any case, the very limited showing of Mercedes in Suzuka just went to show that Mr E. is not feeling particularly comfortable with Mercedes right now, most likely anticipating the domino effect that Mercedes not supplying Red Bull and RB leaving will have on the product he's selling.

Damn. I forgot about the fact that the company holding the team is actually just a front. The real entreprise behind it is juridically independent from F1 and is probably only linked as a supplier. It means Red Bull can just pull out the plug without firing employees or selling its assets. I already putted this solution forward in a previous post, but now being reminded on the value of the holding it actually makes it very viable means to quit the sport.

[FoxHound]

Well, I reckon they'll do what every 'honest' company would do when their liabilities are much larger than their assets: file for bankruptcy. This says https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0312 ... ED/summary that their net worth is only about £4m, which would make it impossible for Mr E to recoup his 500m. In any case, the very limited showing of Mercedes in Suzuka just went to show that Mr E. is not feeling particularly comfortable with Mercedes right now, most likely anticipating the domino effect that Mercedes not supplying Red Bull and RB leaving will have on the product he's selling.

I doubt they liquidate Torro Rosso in similar fashion. That makes no sense to me when they could easily palm it off onto someone else, in return for a small fee, no staff lay offs, and no CVC penalties. They'll lose money in the sale I'm sure, but there are also responsibilities to be upheld to keep it running as a concern.
Red Bull proper will still leave under a cloud, and the repercussion to F1 can be absorbed by the solutions I've stated previously.

And that's IF they can escape the penalty clauses....they're dealing with Ecclestone after all, and he held a wantaway Ferrari over a barrel lest we forget.

[turbof1]

Well, I reckon they'll do what every 'honest' company would do when their liabilities are much larger than their assets: file for bankruptcy. This says https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0312 ... ED/summary that their net worth is only about £4m, which would make it impossible for Mr E to recoup his 500m. In any case, the very limited showing of Mercedes in Suzuka just went to show that Mr E. is not feeling particularly comfortable with Mercedes right now, most likely anticipating the domino effect that Mercedes not supplying Red Bull and RB leaving will have on the product he's selling.

I doubt they liquidate Torro Rosso in similar fashion. That makes no sense to me when they could easily palm it off onto someone else, in return for a small fee, no staff lay offs, and no CVC penalties. They'll lose money in the sale I'm sure, but there are also responsibilities to be upheld to keep it running as a concern.
Red Bull proper will still leave under a cloud, and the repercussion to F1 can be absorbed by the solutions I've stated previously.

And that's IF they can escape the penalty clauses....they're dealing with Ecclestone after all, and he held a wantaway Ferrari over a barrel lest we forget.

I dispute they could just sell off the team. Last year both Marussia and Caterham went into administration. Only at the very last second Manor found an investor. Nobody bought any of 2 teams back then, and they were bargain sales compared to what Toro Rosso will be.

There's very little interest to step into F1 for what it costs. If Red Bull and Toro Rosso leave, expect those slots to be empty on the grid for the next few years.

Ecclestone always had the luxury up until now to deal all financial issues with the world of F1, a world where he essentially made the rules. If Red Bull Racing Limited files bankruptcy, everything will go to public court and Ecclestone looses his advantage.

[ME4ME]

Well, I reckon they'll do what every 'honest' company would do when their liabilities are much larger than their assets: file for bankruptcy. This says https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0312 ... ED/summary that their net worth is only about £4m, which would make it impossible for Mr E to recoup his 500m. In any case, the very limited showing of Mercedes in Suzuka just went to show that Mr E. is not feeling particularly comfortable with Mercedes right now, most likely anticipating the domino effect that Mercedes not supplying Red Bull and RB leaving will have on the product he's selling.

I agree. I still think there is a slight chance for Red Bull to get Mercedes engines. Bernie obviously will use all the tools available to him to convince them, including live air-time and Pirelli and other sponsors' happiness. Mercedes obviously already decided against, but there were pro's and con's, and if Bernie can stack up enough pro's then who knows they might reconsider. Long shot though..

[SoCalWJS]

Would hate to see RB leave. Not good for the Sport of F1 in many ways.

....yet I get the overall impression from all of this whining by RB that whoever it was that said it many years ago was correct.

Red Bull is an energy drink company, not an F1 Team. No long term history in the sport and no long term commitment. If they aren't the first place team, they're going to take their ball and go home.

Wish it were different, but that's sure how it seems to me.

[bauc]

Leaving F1 will hurt the general image of RedBull to some extent, as the general public does not really know or understand the reasons why RedBull is not winning, they will just say ...they are not winning and they left.....only the people who follow F1 closely like us will have a different picture and what will be left of RedBull will be some honorable mentions in the future of a team that once dominated the sport like Beneton ect and that's it.

[FoxHound]

On the perceived approach from Red Bull to Mercedes for engine supply...

Christian Horner and Helmut Marko wrote us one letter to say they would like engines. I said 'yes, but first we have to discuss with Mr Mateschitz' because Mateschitz, for whatever reason, never liked Mercedes.
There is something in the past which I do not know. So I went to see Mateschitz myself because I know him and asked 'are you really interested?' and he said 'yes, but, but, but...' And then out of this 'but, but, but' we never continued any talks."

Seems to me they aren't remotely serious about getting an engine.

[FoxHound]

I dispute they could just sell off the team. Last year both Marussia and Caterham went into administration. Only at the very last second Manor found an investor. Nobody bought any of 2 teams back then, and they were bargain sales compared to what Toro Rosso will be.

There's very little interest to step into F1 for what it costs. If Red Bull and Toro Rosso leave, expect those slots to be empty on the grid for the next few years.

Ecclestone always had the luxury up until now to deal all financial issues with the world of F1, a world where he essentially made the rules. If Red Bull Racing Limited files bankruptcy, everything will go to public court and Ecclestone looses his advantage.

The problem for the teams you mention, is that they had debt which was linked to the team as a concern.
As far as I'm aware, Torro Rosso are devoid of such liabilities AND get more money from CVC than either entities you mentioned. The only issue will be asking price, which can be offset over a period of time if the appetite for sale is strong enough.

[Cold Fussion]

It's been rumored for a few years now that Torro Rosso would be sold if a potential buyer could be found. Considering that Torro Rosso are a competent midfield team that gets plenty of air time and buyer still hasn't been interested would suggest to me that selling Torro Rosso will not be fast or easy.

Of course this is the choice they face, Turbo.

But do we know what Red Bull and Torro Rosso will have to pay if they ditch F1? I'm reading 500 million plus.
Now I'm going to be really cheeky and say a competitive engine programme will cost a few dollars short of that.

A competitive engine program is probably in the realms of 200-300 million per year, not to mention the huge capital costs of setting up a competitive engine operation from scratch and the multi year lead time in producing said competitive engine. An engine program will be essentially duplicating Red Bull technologies in engine form. It doesn't make sense for them to start an engine program unless they have some long term plans of turning into an car manufacturer.

[FoxHound]

It's been rumored for a few years now that Torro Rosso would be sold if a potential buyer could be found. Considering that Torro Rosso are a competent midfield team that gets plenty of air time and buyer still hasn't been interested would suggest to me that selling Torro Rosso will not be fast or easy.

If the price is right. And the terms of the price are right.

[ME4ME]

Why would Renault want Torro Rosso when they could have Lotus, which was in fact the former Renault team proper?

The problem for the teams you mention, is that they had debt which was linked to the team as a concern.As far as I'm aware, Torro Rosso are devoid of such liabilities AND get more money from CVC than either entities you mentioned. The only issue will be asking price, which can be offset over a period of time if the appetite for sale is strong enough.

Well there you go, you answered your own question.

[FoxHound]

Why would Renault want Torro Rosso when they could have Lotus, which was in fact the former Renault team proper?

The problem for the teams you mention, is that they had debt which was linked to the team as a concern.As far as I'm aware, Torro Rosso are devoid of such liabilities AND get more money from CVC than either entities you mentioned. The only issue will be asking price, which can be offset over a period of time if the appetite for sale is strong enough.

Well there you go, you answered your own question.

I'll paint you a picture so you can understand the pertinance to the point I was making. Again.

Why would Renault want Torro Rosso when they could have Lotus, which was in fact the former Renault team proper?

1. Torro Rosso has far fiscal less issues, but also may require investment to get to the level of Enstone's factory. Renault did win the Championship in 2005 and 2006 with that very factory.
2. Renault has a working relationship with the (Lotus) team, and has intimate knowledge of it.
3. Torro Rosso will be cut off from the "motorsport valley" supply line which is only possible now due to Red Bull affiliation.
There's a reason teams set up in this area. Closer working relations with suppliers, most of whom are in the radius of "motorsports valley", lower freight costs, and quicker turnaround time in getting supplies.
4. We have no idea how far Torro Rosso have been integrated into the Red Bull setup. Red Bull technology is listed as a supplier, and a partner. Torro Rosso have their own offices at Red Bull's facotry. Red Bull themselves have said that Torro Rosso's competitiveness would suffer if there was a split.

Such a scenario would only take off if the close relationship between Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso stays intact, within the rules. Red Bull Racing’s headcount is much higher, the equipment of the team is more sophisticated — so without the know-how of Red Bull Racing, Toro Rosso would be hurt in its competitiveness.

I could implicate Marko in a fair few wrongdoings in that statement, but for the sake of the thread, you get the point.
Hopefully this is enough for you to garner the image you ought to have had initially.

And also, the above should let you know why the money Red Bull are reputedly asking for Torro Rosso, circa 150 million from some speculative reports, is exorbitant for a team that will suddenly halve in value the moment it's purchased.

[ME4ME]

1. Torro Rosso has far fiscal less issues, but also may require investment to get to the level of Enstone's factory. Renault did win the Championship in 2005 and 2006 with that very factory.

Red Bull has kept Toro Rosso financially healty, while Enstone has been lacking investment for quite a while. A championship 10 years ago does not change that.

2. Renault has a working relationship with the (Lotus) team, and has intimate knowledge of it.

Had a working relationship is the word. Lotus decided the Renault PU package was too expensive, under-performing and certainly unreliable and changed to Merc units. Sure the people at Enstone will be happy for the money Renault brings, other that that, not so much. Only vodka will help them to forget the memories of last year..

3. Torro Rosso will be cut off from the "motorsport valley" supply line which is only possible now due to Red Bull affiliation.
There's a reason teams set up in this area. Closer working relations with suppliers, most of whom are in the radius of "motorsports valley", lower freight costs, and quicker turnaround time in getting supplies.

If Toro Rosso can cope now, why wouldn't they under Renault's control. You yourself are the person here motivating a far-fetched idea like RB building their own power units, a much simpler thing like Renault making a team in Italy work should be peanuts in comparison.

[FoxHound]

Red Bull has kept Toro Rosso financially healty, while Enstone has been lacking investment for quite a while. A championship 10 years ago does not change that.

You've completely ignored most of what I wrote.

Torro Rosso would suffer consequences in the event of any sale. Helmet Marko's own words.
They are a de facto customer team supplied in part by Red Bull technology.

Had a working relationship is the word. Lotus decided the Renault PU package was too expensive, under-performing and certainly unreliable and changed to Merc units. Sure the people at Enstone will be happy for the money Renault brings, other that that, not so much. Only vodka will help them to forget the memories of last year.

If you think that the knowledge base Renault have on Enstone is worthless, please explain why Renault would not have more of an affiliation to Enstone than Faenza.
Not to mention the fact that Lotus have outperformed Torro Rosso for each year of their existence apart from 2014.

If Toro Rosso can cope now, why wouldn't they under Renault's control. You yourself are the person here motivating a far-fetched idea like RB building their own power units, a much simpler thing like Renault making a team in Italy work should be peanuts in comparison.

Again you remain ignoramus to what I've written. You've quoted me, but I don't think you quite grasp the concept of Renault operating out of Faenza rather than Enstone.
They owned Lotus 4 years ago? They have knowledge of the tools they themselves bought to run the team? They have details of suppliers from their previous ownership? They don't need to ship supplies from 2000 miles away? They don't need to run large parts of the operation through another team(Red Bull), to retain competitiveness.

Out of interest, who do you think supplies Torro Rosso in Faenza right now?

[FoxHound]

As for the far fetched engine idea....

People said 11 years ago it was far fetched for an energy drinks sponsor to run a formula one team.
Those same people would have laughed if this company ran not only one but two GP teams.
Then others said it was impossible for a midfield energy drinks company to sign a genius like Newey.
Lots of other people said there's no way an energy drinks company can compete for a title.
Probably those same people said that they could never win a championship.
Other then laughed at the idea of them ever becoming 4 times in a row double world champions.

Far fetched if you want to believe it is.

As for the relevance to Red Bull of building an engine, whats the relevance to them building a chassis or working (expensive) aero concepts?

Zip. Zielch. Nada.