Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[mikeerfol]

https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/649309120525373440

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree. I thought that we wouldn't see waste-gates in '14 except maybe as a backup to the MGU-K. But PZ is right, in real-world transient conditions, the wg is needed more than perhaps originally thought. Also in qualifying, the Merc's and Ferrari's are leaving the waste-gate wide open to reduce back pressure on the ICE and spinning the compressor with just the MGU-H and battery power.

Whoa.. this waste-gate wide open thing stemmed from Tifosi speculation. It was not confirmed. Yes it seems an advatage for some parts of the track but I was not speaking to that aspect though. I was only confirming that I hear the waste-gate noises in the on-board qualification videos. It is a fluttering noise. This is enough evidence that the waste-gate is frequently used. One only has to observe on his own and not be misguided by the journalists.

....since when do wastegates make fluttering noises?

The exhaust will be louder when they are open as the air will bypass the turbine (heard this a lot on the Ferrari 2014)

Yes wastegates can flutter depending on your boost control settings. Rally cars had a very noticeble flutter as well as regular ole street cars at the drag strip. I think in F1 this is the cause of the fluttering noize when the drivers downshift into a corner and the MGUH cannot take any more load.

Just listen for yourself. You will hear it. It is not compressor surge either, because there is the MGUH to regulate the compressor speed. The point I am making is that the waste-gate is regularly used and it is very important to performance how it is positioned.

[trinidefender]

Whoa.. this waste-gate wide open thing stemmed from Tifosi speculation. It was not confirmed. Yes it seems an advatage for some parts of the track but I was not speaking to that aspect though. I was only confirming that I hear the waste-gate noises in the on-board qualification videos. It is a fluttering noise. This is enough evidence that the waste-gate is frequently used. One only has to observe on his own and not be misguided by the journalists.

....since when do wastegates make fluttering noises?

The exhaust will be louder when they are open as the air will bypass the turbine (heard this a lot on the Ferrari 2014)

Yes wastegates can flutter depending on your boost control settings. Rally cars had a very noticeble flutter as well as regular ole street cars at the drag strip. I think in F1 this is the cause of the fluttering noize when the drivers downshift into a corner and the MGUH cannot take any more load.

Just listen for yourself. You will hear it. It is not compressor surge either, because there is the MGUH to regulate the compressor speed. The point I am making is that the waste-gate is regularly used and it is very important to performance how it is positioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUcVQEP9o0

Generally wastegate flutter you hear comes more from mechanical wastegates or wastegates that are improperly sized (sometimes resulting in boost creep). Or it comes from blow off valves which many times make a fluttering noise.

I'm not saying wastegates aren't used, however it simply makes sense that any energy that can be recovered via the MGU-H braking the compressor wheel is better than a wastegate opening.

[McMrocks]

Is this log-style or tubular?

Log.

Honda must be kicking itself after seeing that Mercedes ditched the log exhaust this season.

No, they have testing rigs to see what spec is better, too

[Sasha]

With the new 2016 rules to make the PU's louder,Honda gets to change their turbo without using tokens.So they can use them somewhere eles.

[bauc]

With the new 2016 rules to make the PU's louder,Honda gets to change their turbo without using tokens.So they can use them somewhere eles.

Are you sure about the free trubo update for 2016? Thanks

*** Edit, yes you are correct I've read now as well, thanks anyway

[Abarth]

[[...]Just listen for yourself. You will hear it. It is not compressor surge either, because there is the MGUH to regulate the compressor speed. The point I am making is that the waste-gate is regularly used and it is very important to performance how it is positioned.[...]

I agree that it is used. I'm not arguing about this, never was. In quali it is used over a longer period of time to allow backpressure reduction, spinning the compressor electrically.

And yes, it is important how it is positioned. BUT myy claim is that the positioning of it as Honda did is good, because it allows to use blowdown energy to help spin the compressor without backpressure built up.

However, this is not a normal mode in race, where you want to minimize waste gate opening and instead propel MGU-H, generating electricity.

[FW17]

Spinning compressor electrically never happens unless there is a lag

[PlatinumZealot]

....since when do wastegates make fluttering noises?

The exhaust will be louder when they are open as the air will bypass the turbine (heard this a lot on the Ferrari 2014)

Yes wastegates can flutter depending on your boost control settings. Rally cars had a very noticeble flutter as well as regular ole street cars at the drag strip. I think in F1 this is the cause of the fluttering noize when the drivers downshift into a corner and the MGUH cannot take any more load.

Just listen for yourself. You will hear it. It is not compressor surge either, because there is the MGUH to regulate the compressor speed. The point I am making is that the waste-gate is regularly used and it is very important to performance how it is positioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUcVQEP9o0

Generally wastegate flutter you hear comes more from mechanical wastegates or wastegates that are improperly sized (sometimes resulting in boost creep). Or it comes from blow off valves which many times make a fluttering noise.

I'm not saying wastegates aren't used, however it simply makes sense that any energy that can be recovered via the MGU-H braking the compressor wheel is better than a wastegate opening.

You know what Trini? These new rules about improving the sound by separately routing the wastegates come at the perfect time. Next year you will be able to hear it loud and clear how often the waste-gates are used.
If the wastegates weren't used regularly what would be the point of making these new rules?

[trinidefender]

Yes wastegates can flutter depending on your boost control settings. Rally cars had a very noticeble flutter as well as regular ole street cars at the drag strip. I think in F1 this is the cause of the fluttering noize when the drivers downshift into a corner and the MGUH cannot take any more load.

Just listen for yourself. You will hear it. It is not compressor surge either, because there is the MGUH to regulate the compressor speed. The point I am making is that the waste-gate is regularly used and it is very important to performance how it is positioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUcVQEP9o0

Generally wastegate flutter you hear comes more from mechanical wastegates or wastegates that are improperly sized (sometimes resulting in boost creep). Or it comes from blow off valves which many times make a fluttering noise.

I'm not saying wastegates aren't used, however it simply makes sense that any energy that can be recovered via the MGU-H braking the compressor wheel is better than a wastegate opening.

You know what Trini? These new rules about improving the sound by separately routing the wastegates come at the perfect time. Next year you will be able to hear it loud and clear how often the waste-gates are used.
If the wastegates weren't used regularly what would be the point of making these new rules?

As I said, I'm not denying that they aren't used. I believe that due to current control limitations, boost spikes, constant changes of throttle position and ensuring accurate pressure control the wastegate will be used fairly often. However as part of a teams energy recovery strategy, the more you can use the MGU-H as a brake, they more energy you can recover.

The best analogy I can think of is long and short term fuel trims. Allow me to explain. The ECU in a car tries to maintain a set AFR (air fuel ratio) usually decided by, at the least, rpm and throttle positions. Short term fuel trims are used to increase or decrease the fuel going into the combustion chamber multiple times a second to maintain correct AFR (generally read by an oxygen sensor in the exhaust). Long term fuel trims are driven by short term ones. If the ECU sees that on average the short term fuelling is slightly to rich it will adjust the long term fuelling to lean out the fuelling. Make sense?

Now think of the wastegate as short term fuelling and the MGU-H as long term fuelling. If the ECU in the PU sees that above a certain throttle position and rpm (and whatever other condition) there is large increase in exhaust gas and resulting rapid increase in boost the ECU will use the wastegate to manage that as it is the fastest reacting control. Now if the ECU sees this for a while then it should be able to control the MGU-H to predict the oncoming boost increase and brake the MGU-H accordingly. Ergo more energy recovered and while the wastegate is used, it is used less.

[NL_Fer]

Not only in quali, but also before of after a pitstop, they run one bankerlap, or Hammertime like Hamilton says, and run max power, completly depleting the Energy Store for one lap.

During those laps they can run the engine with more wastegate, to reduce backpressure.

Although i don't think Honda has much power left to run with the wastegate open, they can't even run down the straight completly with mgu-k boost.

[NL_Fer]

Trini you are totally forgetting the fact, that these cars are running in circles and long term is only one lap.

Image Mercedes, their MGU-H is so efficient. They can run all the WOT parts of a lap, with MGU-K enabled. During a qualify lap, the ES doesn't need to be charged after the laps finished. To use more energy from the store, they cannot use MGU-K for than all WOT parts.

The only other solution is to disable the turbine and run the compressor from the ES using MGU-H

[trinidefender]

Trini you are totally forgetting the fact, that these cars are running in circles and long term is only one lap.

Image Mercedes, their MGU-H is so efficient. They can run all the WOT parts of a lap, with MGU-K enabled. During a qualify lap, the ES doesn't need to be charged after the laps finished. To use more energy from the store, they cannot use MGU-K for than all WOT parts.

The only other solution is to disable the turbine and run the compressor from the ES using MGU-H

Some serious misconceptions.
1. Laps are irrelevant. The ECU doesn't care about laps for this calculation. All it needs to know is that (and this is just one example) above a certain throttle position and rpm the boost pressure will want to increase rapidly. At the beginning the waste-gate will control this. As a few cycles of the same scenario, I.e. A few corners, the ECU will recognise that the large pressure increase that was controlled by the waste-gate and instead use the MGU-H braking action to control it. This increases MGU-H recovery energy. Simple.

2. The MGU-K is not an on off switch. It is not either enabled or disabled. I wouldn't be surprised if part of their energy strategy they are running it at 100kW instead of 120kW so they could have it running for the entire length of the straight (again just an example with made up numbers). Considering that the MGU-K can only charge 2kW per lap and deploy 4kW per lap (from the ES) then I'm pretty sure they can use all the energy they can get.

3. The turbine is not disconnected. In the case you are talking about, the waste-gate opens. The back pressure that the ICE sees is reduced considerably. The MGU-H is used to turn the shaft which turns both the compressor and the turbine. The turbine is still spinning, it is just being spun by the MGU-H instead of the exhaust gasses

[hurril]

When you say: Have the MGU-H running at 100kW - what exactly do you mean? It's a generator, it'll generate at whichever power level that does not brake the turbo too much. Unless you're talking about the spooling-up function, in which case that's something that only happens at the very start of a straight.

[trinidefender]

When you say: Have the MGU-H running at 100kW - what exactly do you mean? It's a generator, it'll generate at whichever power level that does not brake the turbo too much. Unless you're talking about the spooling-up function, in which case that's something that only happens at the very start of a straight.

Sorry meant MGU-K. Edited previous post to correct mistake