Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Blackout
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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The Merc is almost as compact as the Honda. And its compressor and turbine arent limited by the V.
I added the big Honda oil tank to the Merc + a fake compressor intake. The Merc layout is a very nice compromise between compactness and sizing freedom.
Obviously it makes the design of the monocoque's rear bulkhead/fuel tank/battery area more tricky and needs a longer shaft between the C and the T + a more twisted airbox for the compressor...
Image
Tommy Cookers wrote: btw
we know that a prominent team says that it uses fuel of 44.64 MJ/kg LCV
and another team has atributed recent substantial power gains to fuel improvement
Which teams? I heard Cowell and Symonds say it's 43MJ/kg!

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Wazari
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hollus wrote:
Wazari wrote:Yes it's very compact, designed to fit the "size 0" concept bodywork. They will have a new PU for 2016 with radical changes.
Do you mean radical changes as:
a) as having new things that no one has ever ran before,
or b) as in very different from their 2015 PU but more similar to what other teams are running?
Very different from the current layout with certain design aspects that no one else is running.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

damager21
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Wazari wrote:Very different from the current layout with certain design aspects that no one else is running.
We all know that Honda is taking design risks to catch up with Mercedes. This year's risk did not work well and we all know how much they are struggling with it.

Do you think next years design changes will work because the challenge is that once they commit to it, they will find it almost impossible to change it during the season if the design is flawed. Also, do you think they will switch to tubular style exhaust manifold from log style?

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pgfpro
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Wazari wrote:These new PU's give me a headache and it sure appears now that I retired from race engineering at the right time. It baffles me that the FIA is concerned about "keeping costs down" while they made it necessary to spend enormous amounts of money in R and D, and production to make a competitive PU. After spending too much time analyzing these PU's, it really boils down to the relationship between the MGU-H,K, turbine and ES to maximize output for an entire race lap. It has become IMO, ridiculously complex to keep "costs down".

If it were up to me, I would just keep it simple. Max 2.0 liter displacement, number of cylinders, bore and stroke unrestricted, single turbo, max RPM 16,000 and everyone must run on the same 104 octane "pump fuel" supplied by one vendor only. 8 speed gearbox, no traction control and no ABS. Keep it simple, allow creativity in the ICE design and allow much fuel to be consumed with mid-race re-fueling. This is racing for goodness sakes....sorry for the rant....I feel better now.
Wazari with much respect I think F1 is going in the right direction. F1 knows that the future for the Automobile is to burn less fuel while making the same or more power. Going by your idea of what you would like to see F1 do for an engine platform in bold print, you would have engines making close to 2500 HP. Even with your 104 octane rule this could still could be done. I'm working on a good friends car that is running a 25 year old technology 4G63 engine 2.0L that makes around 1500 HP at 11000 rpm, and both of us are far from F1 engineer status. My point with this is what would a F1 car do with 2500HP? How much of the 2500 HP be used???
Some teams are also the manufacturer so I don't follow the logic of the FIA is trying to cut costs to teams and not the manufacturers? The cost to design and produce the MGU-H units alone must be enormous and sadly much of this technology will never see its way into production vehicles if that is supposedly the end goal. I just don't understand this, also with the blending of these exotic fuels.

Also, what is the purpose of fuel usage restrictions. We're going to spend millions of dollars to make these cars go as fast as possible, oh BTW, there is a fuel usage restriction. Go ahead and spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to make the exotic fuels but you can only use so much a lap. How is that cost saving? This reactionary management style of the FIA is going to ruin F! IMO. I don't think people realize the cost of the hardware (IE. PU's, bodywork, etc.) is not that great compared to the R and D and initial production start up costs. Once you develop and eventually cast an engine block, the subsequent ones are small in cost relative to the cost incurred prior. Limiting teams to 4 or 5 PU's a season doesn't make sense to me either. Maybe I'm too old school, but something needs to change in the FIA's total view with regards to PU's.
Again with much respect in regards to your above statement in bold. I think if the manufacturers want to play with this new technology then they will have to pay and they should be able to afford it. I think we will see some type of this technology in production vehicles. Hybrid down size DI turbo engines that produce great BSFC numbers are already being built. If the manufacturer could implement a MGHU to help charge the battery and add some extra power to the battery pack at WOT and add a small amount at mid load would be awesome!!! I own a 2000 Honda Insight that could use the extra power and charge. :D

On the subject of the exotic fuels that are being made for F1, I think we need to see some advancement. Todays fuel has been stagnant for years now. Its time to improve the fuel and design it around DI with high cylinder pressures with faster burn rates.
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damager21
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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I think the problem with F1 is that it has become like a lucky draw where engine manufacturer which does the best job is guaranteed success during the entire season which just makes it boring.

If you want to limit costs, impose a max price at which engines could be sold to teams. What is the point in restricting the likes of Honda, Ferrari and Renault from improving their engine when they have solutions available to catch Mercedes? This token system has tied their hands.

How does all the problem faced by Renault and Honda this season help F1? The reason why RedBull and Toro Rosso are in such a mess today is because of the challenges faced by Renault in upping their game. Their verbal spat could have been avoided if Renault had a possibility of improving their engine.

We could loose 2 competitive teams because of these engine rules. In fact with all these restrictions, I don't see any new manufacturer entering the sports. You need more manufacturers so that it is fair and even playing ground for the likes of Red Bull to compete with others. They now have to run around to secure a competitive engine or quit.

noname
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Wazari wrote:The cost to design and produce the MGU-H units alone must be enormous and sadly much of this technology will never see its way into production vehicles if that is supposedly the end goal.
They are not that expensive (at least not in motorsport terms), and not that "unique". After all they were based on technologies existing for a while (with usual "make it smaller and lighter", of course). I bet prices went down, probably not as much as KERS between 2009 and 2011, but still significantly.

And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.

Tommy Cookers
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noname wrote: And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.
for no good reason
it won't work properly at partial power ie in road use
then, it's self defeating, as any exhaust recovery means further throttling or other power reduction
the least bad way to use it is by another dose of downsizing

it's a juicy gimmick to sell expensive, complicated, overpowered cars
so, handy for Mercedes
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 04 Oct 2015, 21:39, edited 2 times in total.

hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
noname wrote: And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.
for no good reason
it won't work at partial power
then, it's self defeating, as any exhaust recovery means further throttling or other power reduction

it's a juicy gimmick to sell expensive, complicated, overpowered cars
handy for Mercedes, then
What makes it not work at partial throttling and in what way won't it work?

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Wazari
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noname wrote:
Wazari wrote:The cost to design and produce the MGU-H units alone must be enormous and sadly much of this technology will never see its way into production vehicles if that is supposedly the end goal.
They are not that expensive (at least not in motorsport terms), and not that "unique". After all they were based on technologies existing for a while (with usual "make it smaller and lighter", of course). I bet prices went down, probably not as much as KERS between 2009 and 2011, but still significantly.

And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.
What is your definition of not that expensive? Honda Racing has invested over 15 billion yen just to develop this current PU with about 40 per cent of that going to develop and produce 50 of these MGU-H units. IMO, that's a lot of money.

Whether we see the MGU-H technology in the common street car, time will tell. I have my doubts if we will see it soon. If the auto makers didn't receive huge tax incentives or subsidies to give false economies on certain production vehicles, we would be seeing a lot less hybrids on the roads as an example.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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hurril wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:
noname wrote: And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.
for no good reason
it won't work at partial power
then, it's self defeating, as any exhaust recovery means further throttling or other power reduction

it's a juicy gimmick to sell expensive, complicated, overpowered cars
handy for Mercedes, then
What makes it not work at partial throttling and in what way won't it work?
lower energy (especially pressure) in the exhaust
as with N/A

noname
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wazari wrote:What is your definition of not that expensive? Honda Racing has invested over 15 billion yen just to develop this current PU with about 40 per cent of that going to develop and produce 50 of these MGU-H units. IMO, that's a lot of money.
They heavily overpaid.

I would not be surprised if Honda chose to work with people having almost no experience with this technology, this could explain the price :)
Last edited by noname on 04 Oct 2015, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

noname
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
noname wrote: And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.
for no good reason
it won't work properly at partial power ie in road use
There are bunch of applications working at, or close to, full power.
And you do not need to make tens of kW to see the gains, even few can make the difference. Especially as you can find benefits in other parts of powertrain or vehicle.

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pgfpro
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IMO a MGUH would work just fine in tomorrows vehicles. It would only be used at mid to high load.

At light load freeway speed steady state, you wouldn't need any turbo assist or battery assist. Today and tomorrows vehicles have a much lower cd then the past and require a lot less HP to maintain freeway speed. This is where you need to downsize the engine to keep the N/A part of the map closer to 100kPa. This makes the engine more efficient with less throttle loss. Some of the new great aero vehicles will require less then 10HP at freeway speed.

So where the turbo MGUH would be used is for acceleration from a dead stop at mid load (leaving a stop light) and high load (getting on the freeway). From some calculations I made using a turbo simulator a 1.0 L turbo engine with a MGUH at mid load could have an extra
2kW at 3000rpm
4kW at 4000rpm
5.5kW at 5000rpm
7.5kW at 6000rpm
at high load
4kW at 3000rpm
8kW at 4000rpm
11kW at 5000rpm
15kW at 6000rpm

A 2.0L engine mid load
3.5kW at 3000rpm
7.5kW at 4000rpm
10.5kW at 5000rpm
14kW at 6000rpm
at high load
7kW at 3000rpm
15kW at 4000rpm
21kW at 5000rpm
28kW at 6000rpm
All above numbers based on an A/F of 14.7:1 with todays off the shelf low technology radial turbo design. F1 turbos are going to be far more advance then these that i used in the calculations.
Last edited by pgfpro on 05 Oct 2015, 06:57, edited 1 time in total.
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RagingBullx
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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That’s the first picture I have seen of the insides of the Honda PU and …what an idea. Not sure if the other teams have thought of that but given that you can change the turbine then you could change the vains within a turbine and so you have the option of tuning the system to the exact climate and altitude conditions without a grid drop,if you can get it working. I for one was wondering about the distinct sound of the Honda and have previously mentioned that something was tricked inside the system and if this system can get some reliability and power then Big Ron was probably right..its going to challenge the Mercs own unique design.
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Wazari
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noname wrote:
Wazari wrote:What is your definition of not that expensive? Honda Racing has invested over 15 billion yen just to develop this current PU with about 40 per cent of that going to develop and produce 50 of these MGU-H units. IMO, that's a lot of money.
They heavily overpaid.

I would not be surprised if Honda chose to work with people having almost no experience with this technology, this could explain the price :)

Well it's about half of what Merc spent last year just for their PU division.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro