Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

The vanes in the turbo have to be fixed, and the internals are sealed in any case.

[damager21]

With the new 2016 rules to make the PU's louder,Honda gets to change their turbo without using tokens.So they can use them somewhere eles.

What is the possibility that because of the new rules, Honda was to say that they need to change their turbo design which is impacting performance of their compressor and MGU-H, hence re-design of compressor and MGU-H should also be allowed with use of any tokens?

This would allow them to utilize their existing 4 tokens to improve ICE or MGU-K. Even better would be that they get to carry forward these 4 tokens to next season.

[Tommy Cookers]

And this technology is making its way on the road. In few years from now it will be in production.

for no good reason
it won't work properly at partial power ie in road use

There are bunch of applications working at, or close to, full power.
And you do not need to make tens of kW to see the gains, even few can make the difference. Especially as you can find benefits in other parts of powertrain or vehicle.

on this site I have been a pioneer (and persistent) advocate of exhaust recovery, eg the big thread at the top
primarily pointing out that it's free because it works without what people like to call 'backpressure'
and even citing evidence that it works with N/A (at high power)
60 years ago it was dominant in aviation (and killed diesels)

similarly I have often praised the ingenuity of the F1 PU rules ....
as a synergistic package sidelining eg VVT or VG or fuller expansion
but remember these are chosen for many millions of road cars
for good reason, for road cars eg in crowded European countries (and Japan) they appear to give more benefit value for money

the so-called F1 technology seems calculated to glamourise and so stealthily spread the hybrid thing (city electric driving really)
particularly when seeing the stock cross-holdings of Merc and Renault .....
and the current diesel scandal shock and the related city mayoral postures

yes, electrically driven low-pressure intermittent supercharging of small engines also now seems attractive and good value
the mgu-h bit is convenient as a bolt-on but inherently expensive and poorly matched to road car use

though remember, the simplest downsizing is to buy a smaller engine
so this was typically supported (outside the American continent and similar) by legislatory frameworks for 60-80 years


@ pgf pro
don't forget the mechanical drag (rolling resistance) of our cars
eg outside the USA etc small cars have become much heavier than eg 40-50 years ago (and fewer)
and acceleration of vehicle mass is still the/a major term in typical driving ?

[Cold Fussion]

Presumably the main barrier for exhaust recovery hybrids would be cost, for mixed driving conditions of city and highway it seems like it's probable that there would good economy gains by being able to deploy electric power in city driving, even with a small battery pack. The biggest gain would probably be in trucks/lorries, maybe even running a full diesel electric setup.

[Thunder]

Some more Pictures by muramasa over at the Autosport Forum. All the Pictures from the showcasing at Suzuka are his... now he finally watermarked them

Open in new Tab for full Size

[Tommy Cookers]

the recovery potential is less in a diesel because there's less energy in the exhaust
recovery systems currently in trucks, they seem only to give a trivial level of recovery

though diesels are traditionally assumed to be happier (than SI) with raised exhaust pressure eg for recovery purposes

[yzfr7]

...
though remember, the simplest downsizing is to buy a smaller engine
so this was typically supported (outside the American continent and similar) by legislatory frameworks for 60-80 years
...

In no way disputing your arguments, but you might know that Brazil implemented strong incentives for small petrol engines in the early 90s, resulting in a market dominated by 1.0 l non-turbo petrol engines. Up to 70% of car sales in 90s and 00s , much less now.

(best link I can find in English)
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/brazi ... 91147.html

In the early 00s 1.0 l turbo petrol started to appear, though they were nothing compared to current higher-tech small eco-boosts and the like. They didn't make much success in sales, and left a bad reputation behind, today most people would not consider buying a small turbo again.

The 1.0 l na does not give much better mileage than a 1.6, and is not better in any other way, but they are still the backbone of brazilian car market, price is the deal breaker.

and now back to Honda PUs ...

[pgfpro]

@ pgf pro
don't forget the mechanical drag (rolling resistance) of our cars
eg outside the USA etc small cars have become much heavier than eg 40-50 years ago (and fewer)
and acceleration of vehicle mass is still the/a major term in typical driving ?

Good point TC.
On my 2000 Honda insight Hybrid when driven in stop and go traffic in the city. The battery assist deploys pretty much every time you leave a stop light and pulls energy from the battery. The good news regenerated braking when stopping at the next stop light will almost recover "most" of that energy. This is where I would love to have a MGUH system to help add just a little more regenerated recovery to recharge the battery at mid load. At freeway speed most of the time the battery is just along for the ride. The only time when the battery assist kicks in at freeway speed is when you go to pass another car. This would be another great time to have a MGUH.
My Insight Specs.
The gasoline engine is a 67 hp (50 kW; 68 PS), 1.0 litre, ECA series 3-cylinder unit providing lean burn operation with an air-to-fuel ratio that can reach 25.8 to 1.[13] The engine utilizes lightweight aluminum, magnesium, and plastic to minimize weight.[14] The electrical motor assist adds another 10 kW (13 hp) and a maximum of 36 pound-feet (49 Nm) of torque when called on, with the aim to boost performance to the level of a typical 1.5L petrol engine.

[diffuser]

A member of neighborly forum Autosport,named @scarbs(not sure if Craig!?) has said that compressor is actually not axial,but normal radial and very small one tucked in the V of the ICE,and that basically Honda did same mistake Ferrari did last year and whit the fix of that area he expect the same jump Ferrari did this year.

The 2 PUs are very different, Ferrari's turbine/compressor/MGU-H are external to the engine while the Honda's are encased. The symptoms are similar, not sure how identical "the same issue" actually is.

Honda's reliability is nowhere near where Ferrari's was in 2014. Honda grabbed 4 new PU total at SPA/Monza and I'm not certain they'll make it to the end of the season with those.

There are many unknowns which you don't see until you get there. As we've seen this year, Honda's PU has many short coming that at this time last year Honda didn't foresee.

In short I think to get to where Ferrari was at the beginning of the year, Honda has further to go than Ferrari did from the end of 2014. They can still do it, even surpass Ferrari, I just think it's less likely.

[diffuser]

Some teams are also the manufacturer so I don't follow the logic of the FIA is trying to cut costs to teams and not the manufacturers? The cost to design and produce the MGU-H units alone must be enormous and sadly much of this technology will never see its way into production vehicles if that is supposedly the end goal. I just don't understand this, also with the blending of these exotic fuels.

Also, what is the purpose of fuel usage restrictions. We're going to spend millions of dollars to make these cars go as fast as possible, oh BTW, there is a fuel usage restriction. Go ahead and spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to make the exotic fuels but you can only use so much a lap. How is that cost saving? This reactionary management style of the FIA is going to ruin F! IMO. I don't think people realize the cost of the hardware (IE. PU's, bodywork, etc.) is not that great compared to the R and D and initial production start up costs. Once you develop and eventually cast an engine block, the subsequent ones are small in cost relative to the cost incurred prior. Limiting teams to 4 or 5 PU's a season doesn't make sense to me either. Maybe I'm too old school, but something needs to change in the FIA's total view with regards to PU's.

Don't even get me started on tires...........

I like the attempt at being greener, I think they should keep pushing that envelope. Maybe come up with a way for that to happen on it's own.

They should be running on standard Pump fuel.

The penalties for PU aren't that bad now. If Merc had to use 6 or 7 PUs to get through the season, Hamilton would probably still win. Simply cause if the chose the track wisely they could start from the back and still finish high in the points.

I hope that the MGU-H can be used at some point

[gruntguru]

wastegating to so-called zero (or partial reduction of) so-called backpressure is interesting
the turbine is at max rpm and will try to evacuate the exhaust manifold ??
the mu-h motoring power lost by driving the turbine will be how much ? ..... and how/why ??
we might want to throttle the turbine but cannot ?

I think a radial inflow turbine will actually backflow (pressurise the exh manifold) rather than evacuate it due to centrifugal force. This may be an advantage for axial or mixed flow turbines in this scenario.
I tend to think they must be relying on blowdown energy to overcome turbine windage (and backflow) without pressurising the exhaust during the exhaust stroke.

to reduce to nominal 'zero backpressure' ie close to ambient .....
the exhaust proportion that must exit via the wastegate is about 50% or 60%

ie as the blowdown 'AC component' exhaust gas is not seperable from the default 'DC component' exhaust gas
(without some high-speed dedicated porting/valving device that is not permitted ?)
the blowdown energy available in the turbine region is only 40 or 50% of the normal level

constant AFR above 10500 rpm (ie reducing MAP and exhaust pressure) has good points (and bad)
as hollus has reminded me, shifting up gives a rev drop of about 20% in the middle gears and 13% in the highest gears

The DC component will follow the easiest path as defined by flow coefficients (bends, shoulders etc) and cross sectional areas. The AC component acts more like a sound wave and follows different rules, so it might be possible to design a wastegate system in a way that reduced the DC while still allowing a significant percentage of the AC to impinge on the turbine. Think of a Pelton wheel with nozzles back at the exhaust valves.

[livinglikethathuh]

Primitive MGU-H systems are actually available for many engines, they are called hybrid turbochargers. An electric motor/generator is connected to the turbine/compressor shaft and the ECU, keeping the turbo spooled up at high power demand and harvesting power at low power demand. Oh, it has its own small battery with it.

My 140 HP SEAT Altea's 2.0 TDI engine is slated to be tunable up to 210 HP with the hybrid turbo. Costs an arm and a leg though...

[Tommy Cookers]

Prof Limebeer seems to be doing applied maths, not engineering
afaik he says (of Spa?) that ......

the KE recovery is at the max allowed
the crankshaft power gain from wastegating is 20 kW, used in qually and race (and the compressor power is 60 kW)
the exhaust recovery power is 40 kW

if these values are/were realistic, they presumably relate to the position of the Ferrari early last year ?

[GoranF1]

Mark Huges on Honda PU.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ex ... into-2016/

[noname]

Mark Huges on Honda PU.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ex ... into-2016/

Last time I was checking turbo speed was capped, and the limit was below "well in excess of 130,000rpm".