Formula One's Engine Crisis

[FoxHound]

Who would want to supply Red Bull anyway? If they win it's because they built a great car. If they lose it's the engine supplier's fault. Having watched them attack Renault (who gave them titles) would you want to supply them? Any failure will be your fault not theirs. Their lack of class has put them in this position.

I think that's a very unfair assessment. During the V8s and their 8 titles, there was nigh on engine parity. Hence, the crucial difference between winning championships, wasn't the engine, it was the aero - which is why time and time again we hear Newey get more credit for those titles than even their driver Vettel...

Post 2014, the engine has become a major factor where the chassis/aero is not the biggest factor, but it's the engine. Hence, a lot of issues lie there in the first place. I'm fairly certain that had Renault built a superb V6T that would have been ahead of struggling Ferrari's and Merc's the tone they'd be singing would be quite different. And if not, there are contracts for those. I mean, if it's clear as day that it's the engine, why wouldn't they mention that?

I agree with J_A_F, and think it to be a pretty fair assessment given the evidence and facts we have surrounding the current state of play.
I garnered a couple of things from your post.

Renault had nothing to with Red Bull's titles.
And Renault has everything to do with Red Bull's current woes.

Well, Renault did actually have a lot to do with Red Bull's titles. After Red bull complained about engines in 2009(again), Renault had an FIA sanctioned change to the engine.
Not only did it become more powerful, but it also used less fuel than Merc or Ferrari, a key factor in races for tyre degradation.
It also allowed for clever use of exhaust gases....EBD. another key factor.

You've basically just eschewed this!

As for Renault being the sole responsibility of Red Bull's woes. To an extent they are at fault, we know that. But no to the total extent you seem to keep repeating.
Red Bull technology provide some parts of the ERS and Hybrid systems, and this here is where the major parts of the issues in the PU lie.
Then we have Red Bull's infamous packaging requirments, which puts alot of strain on PU suppliers in return for better aero.... Newey, right?

[turbof1]

Oh no... what have I done... .

I thought to have closed off this particular discussion in the red bull thread, by locking the latter. Seems you guys found a loophole.

Shame on myself!

[Sevach]

Good point, but the current ruleset makes things a lot worst than usual, under the old sets of rules you could see a manufucturer turn things around with their engines between one season and the next (and sometimes during a season) so Honda and Renault wouldn't be in such a terrible position.

It happened many times in the past with Renault... with BMW... with Mercedes and Ferrari too.

The banning of Beryllium set Mercedes back a full 2 years. Ferrari had massive issues in transition from V12 to V10's which took around 4 years. Toyota never actually got their engine competitive, and Honda managed 1 year of competitiveness in 7 in the 2000's.

What?
The Ferrari V10 was quite good in 97 already.
BMW managed to turn their engine around in 1 year.
Renault abandoning their low V10 concept brought a sudden jump in performance.
The V8 Mercedes was crap in early 2006, by the deadline of the freeze they had quite a competent engine.

Of course not everyone is going to achieve it, only one team can win, but it was possible.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Since the RB thread is locked I'll post here instead.

It's pretty late in to the season now, and a lot of teams will be quite far along in their 2016 development. Red Bull still don't know what engine they are going to be running, surely regardless of whether they secure a deal or not, they are severely compromised going in to 2016? I imagine this is playing a major part in their decision on whether to stay in F1 or not...

[Just_a_fan]

Who would want to supply Red Bull anyway? If they win it's because they built a great car. If they lose it's the engine supplier's fault. Having watched them attack Renault (who gave them titles) would you want to supply them? Any failure will be your fault not theirs. Their lack of class has put them in this position.

I think that's a very unfair assessment. During the V8s and their 8 titles, there was nigh on engine parity. Hence, the crucial difference between winning championships, wasn't the engine, it was the aero - which is why time and time again we hear Newey get more credit for those titles than even their driver Vettel...

Post 2014, the engine has become a major factor where the chassis/aero is not the biggest factor, but it's the engine. Hence, a lot of issues lie there in the first place. I'm fairly certain that had Renault built a superb V6T that would have been ahead of struggling Ferrari's and Merc's the tone they'd be singing would be quite different. And if not, there are contracts for those. I mean, if it's clear as day that it's the engine, why wouldn't they mention that?

Newey's aero concept was centred around blowing the diffuser which allowed large rake angles etc. The engine was key to this concept and only Renault were able to maximise this area of the engine/chassis symbiosis. To claim that it was all aero/Newey and nothing to do with Renault is disingenuous frankly.

In 2014, one of Vettel's issues was that the car without blown diffuser behaved very differently to the last four years. It took him time to adapt where Ricciardo didn't have the same adaption issues. Sure, reliability didn't help either but that was the same for many teams.

If the engines were equal pre-V6T then it would have been easy for Mercedes or Ferrari to equal Renault's ability to blow the diffuser. But they didn't because the rules precluded it. Ted Bull had a technical advantage that others couldn't overcome just as Mercedes have the best engine today. At least today the other engine manufacturers can develop their units, unlike the V8s. No, Red Bull have nothing to complain about other than their own mishandling of the relationship with Renault.

[Just_a_fan]

Since the RB thread is locked I'll post here instead.

It's pretty late in to the season now, and a lot of teams will be quite far along in their 2016 development. Red Bull still don't know what engine they are going to be running, surely regardless of whether they secure a deal or not, they are severely compromised going in to 2016? I imagine this is playing a major part in their decision on whether to stay in F1 or not...

Indeed, but their lack of a 2016 engine partner is their own fault. They dumped Renault, presumably hoping that VW were on their way in. Now they find themselves without an engine. A phrase about burning bridges comes to mind...

[Phil]

Just_a_fan,

I'm not really going to get into any arguments why Vettel struggled or not and if some claims were valid that it was more Newey's cars that won them these championships. I don't care either way, I have no problem with Vettel winning them. 2 of those seasons were fantastically exciting right up to the last race. Couldn't have hoped for more, besides my driver of choice winning them instead.

As for the points you have raised; I'll just post a friendly reminder that you said

"Who would want to supply Red Bull anyway? If they win it's because they built a great car. If they lose it's the engine supplier's fault."

- it was this claim that I directly disagreed with. I left it open as to if Renault should have gotten more credit or not because they deserved it playing their central part - my point was rather that at the time they were winning, to offload some of the credit to Renault would have made absolutely no sense. Their winning formula was precisely as effective as it was because most of the competition was in the dark as to how they achieved that rake and the downforce. Together with the fact that they weren't pulling ridiculous gaps when Vettel launched off the line into the distance also made it difficult to estimate how big the real gap is. Singapore was one but few races where Vettel unleashed what incredible performance he had. Long point short; To credit Renault unnecessarily in a Formula with frozen engines would have been daft, especially if it had sent the FIA into closer looking what was being done with those engine maps and how much of an advantage they had because of it.

How much of an advantage was it? It's anyone's guess. Might have been a few tenths, might have been more, or less. 2 seasons were ridiculously close, despite the changing of regulations in regards to aero and how EBD could be used. I'll just leave it at that.

As for how central Renaults role was. If Renault had pioneered the concept completely on their own - why were the other Renault power cars, among the own works-team, that far off? To suggest RedBull excellent aero staff had little to nothing to do with that is ridiculous.

Anyway, back to your sentence that I directly disagreed with; You are comparing two completely different formulas. One where the engines were frozen and the majority of performance was found in the aero and how the cars handled tires and a completely different formula post 2014 where the engines play a significant role.

If we're back to the old topic why Renault didn't get enough credit; Maybe they should have made sure they had better contracts that obligated RedBull to do so. Can't remember it being that bad either way; I saw lots of Renault commericals touting the championship winning "engine & team" when promoting their Clios and Megans. In fact, there was even a RedBull F1 version of both cars. And I never saw a RedBull commercials exploiting their winnings. Then again, they're a drinks company. It's not their job to sell Renaults cars. What did you expect?

[FoxHound]

The Ferrari V10 was quite good in 97 already.

Well behind Mercedes and Renault of that year. Average Benetton and McLaren chassis beat them at an engine track...
In 1998 and 1999 Mercedes were well ahead enough for Ferrari to make a few inquiries regarding the make up of the engine...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Italian_Grand_Prix

BMW managed to turn their engine around in 1 year.

Agreed, but an exception.

Renault abandoning their low V10 concept brought a sudden jump in performance

Sudden? That concept was on the bench for quite a while, and convergence brought them in line after what...3 years?
We aren't even through year 2 of the V6T....

The V8 Mercedes was crap in early 2006, by the deadline of the freeze they had quite a competent engine.

They got 4 podiums in the first 5 races...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Formula_One_season

[i70q7m7ghw]

Since the RB thread is locked I'll post here instead.

It's pretty late in to the season now, and a lot of teams will be quite far along in their 2016 development. Red Bull still don't know what engine they are going to be running, surely regardless of whether they secure a deal or not, they are severely compromised going in to 2016? I imagine this is playing a major part in their decision on whether to stay in F1 or not...

Indeed, but their lack of a 2016 engine partner is their own fault. They dumped Renault, presumably hoping that VW were on their way in. Now they find themselves without an engine. A phrase about burning bridges comes to mind...

They didn't dump Renault in favour or VW, if VW were coming in to the sport it wasn't going to be until 2017 at the very earliest. I don't really understand what they were playing at dropping Renault this year, you're absolutely right, they only have themselves to blame...

[FoxHound]

They didn't dump Renault in favour or VW, if VW were coming in to the sport it wasn't going to be until 2017 at the very earliest. I don't really understand what they were playing at dropping Renault this year, you're absolutely right, they only have themselves to blame...

It was a politically styled gamble to try force through a Merc or Ferrari engine deal.
When neither were forthcoming, there was always the option to run cap in hand to Renault. It's textbook Red Bull political gameplay.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/ ... 9-11-10-25

Asked Friday if continuing with Renault was possible, Horner said "everything is open."

[dans79]

The "F1 engine crisis" is really the RBR engine crisis, because lets be honest, most people wouldn't care one iota if it was Manor or Sauber having issues with a Renault PU. Imo, the core issue revolves around a few individuals at RBR, Namely, Newey, Horner, Marko, & to a lesser extent Mateschitz. Between them they have a combination of arrogant, entitled, obnoxious, and impatient personalities. Carrying on as they have (for several years), now has consequences and what we are now seeing is the rest of the grid letting them twist in the wind.

[kptaylor]

The "F1 engine crisis" is really the RBR engine crisis, because lets be honest, most people wouldn't care one iota if it was Manor or Sauber having issues with a Renault PU. Imo, the core issue revolves around a few individuals at RBR, Namely, Newey, Horner, Marko, & to a lesser extent Mateschitz. Between them they have a combination of arrogant, entitled, obnoxious, and impatient personalities. Carrying on as they have (for several years), now has consequences and what we are now seeing is the rest of the grid letting them twist in the wind.

No, it is a sport-wide crisis. If a works team can dominate and other teams are unable to close the gap due to regs, why would any manufacturer want to join in as a supplier or new works team? Do you think old teams like Sauber, Williams or McLaren can really win in the current formula? If they improve too much they get detuned engines as compared to the works team and there is no other option for them to claw back raw performance in other areas to make up for it.

[Phil]

The "F1 engine crisis" is really the RBR engine crisis, because lets be honest, most people wouldn't care one iota if it was Manor or Sauber having issues with a Renault PU.

But doesn't it strike you as odd in the slightest when a team like RB that has invested millions and among the highest of all, get reduced to a midfield team (which is where they have been most of the year, if not even further back!).

I also disagree with it not being an issue. I'm possibly the only one, but I for one have been mentioning in just about every 2nd post in the RedBull thread that the engine issue is not specific to RedBull but one every single customer faces. I also maintain that this is not healthy for the sport at all, as essentially it's being controlled by the two engine manufacturers that have built competitive engines. They are now in a situation where they can decide who they supply and what they supply. That is not the basis for a healthy competitive environment.

[dans79]

No, it is a sport-wide crisis. If a works team can dominate and other teams are unable to close the gap due to regs, why would any manufacturer want to join in as a supplier or new works team? Do you think old teams like Sauber, Williams or McLaren can really win in the current formula? If they improve too much they get detuned engines as compared to the works team and there is no other option for them to claw back raw performance in other areas to make up for it.

You know it's always been this way right, I mean off the top of my head I can't think of a single customer team ever beating an established factory team. It's always going to be that way, because the manufacture is designing the engine for the factory team. Additionally when you sell a widget to someone, they are buying the widget, not all the intellectual property, and processes used to make it.

But doesn't it strike you as odd in the slightest when a team like RB that has invested millions and among the highest of all, get reduced to a midfield team (which is where they have been most of the year, if not even further back!).

not at all, as it has happened to other teams many times before, for example look at how Ferrari ($$$)a manufacture has fared over the years in the WCC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_G ... ix_results

1961 1st, 1962 6th
1979 1st, 1980 10th no a single podium all year, highest finish was 5th
2008 1st, 2009 4th

As others have said many times, things in F1 go in cycles. RBR did better last year and is doing better this year than Ferrari did in any of the years I listed above.

[motobaleno]

according to omnicorse ecclestone is exploring/sponsoring a coming back of renault engines for RB

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/67201/ ... lo-renault