Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-cu ... c-in-2016/
Article 23.5 of F1's 2016 Sporting Regulations said: "Only power units which are identical to the power unit that has been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4 of these regulations may be used at an Event during the 2016- 2020 Championship seasons."

Although this rule prevents different specifications of engines, it does not cut off the possibility of manufacturers using better software mapping or fuel products to ensure a competitive advantage over their customers.
So why not just supply Red Bull and Toro Rosso with 2016-spec power unit, same fuel, but with the 2-3 most powerful engine maps taken away.

Ferrari could (and will, if rumors are to believed) supply Toro Rosso, and Mercedes could supply Red Bull. It probably won't happen, but such a deal would make sense. Red Bull should then stop complaining, and either accept a disadvantage or plan for a future works-engine with another company.

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Henne
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME wrote:http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-cu ... c-in-2016/
Article 23.5 of F1's 2016 Sporting Regulations said: "Only power units which are identical to the power unit that has been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4 of these regulations may be used at an Event during the 2016- 2020 Championship seasons."

Although this rule prevents different specifications of engines, it does not cut off the possibility of manufacturers using better software mapping or fuel products to ensure a competitive advantage over their customers.
So why not just supply Red Bull and Toro Rosso with 2016-spec power unit, same fuel, but with the 2-3 most powerful engine maps taken away.

Ferrari could (and will, if rumors are to believed) supply Toro Rosso, and Mercedes could supply Red Bull. It probably won't happen, but such a deal would make sense. Red Bull should then stop complaining, and either accept a disadvantage or plan for a future works-engine with another company.

Not sure if Mercedes and Ferrari would like a team like Red-Bull have the chance to get to know the Mercedes engine AND the Ferrari engine at the same time. I'm pretty sure that Ferrari and Mercedes got together to discuss this and hold this back.

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Thunder
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME wrote: Ferrari could (and will, if rumors are to believed) supply Toro Rosso, and Mercedes could supply Red Bull. It probably won't happen, but such a deal would make sense. Red Bull should then stop complaining, and either accept a disadvantage or plan for a future works-engine with another company.

As posted 2 Pages back, IF they can secure a Deal (not sure if DM really wants to) TR and RB will have the same: https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/653919880794755072
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Yes I noticed that, but as Ferrari has indicated it could be tough to build-up engineering teams for both TR and RB, RB might have no choice. I think the wish for both teams to have the same PU has far lower priority than remaining in F1.
Not sure if Mercedes and Ferrari would like a team like Red-Bull have the chance to get to know the Mercedes engine AND the Ferrari engine at the same time. I'm pretty sure that Ferrari and Mercedes got together to discuss this and hold this back.
I don't see the problem. Teams are not allowed to open up the PU's, or even keep them after the race. Mercedes managed to supply Mclaren perfectly fine last year, without them uncovering all the secrets of the PU and share with Honda.

alexx_88
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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I've posted this in another thread. The company running Red Bull has very little assets and not a lot of cash in the bank. They could easily let it go bankrupt if anyone tries to go after them for leaving the sport. So there's no monetary gain for anyone if RB leaves.

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0312 ... ED/summary

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME wrote:Yes I noticed that, but as Ferrari has indicated it could be tough to build-up engineering teams for both TR and RB, RB might have no choice. I think the wish for both teams to have the same PU has far lower priority than remaining in F1.
Ferrari say that it’s too late for them. They cannot manufacture key components like engine blocks and crankshafts in time, seeing as it is now late October and the cars start testing in three and half months. It takes that long to make a F1 crankshaft. This is one of the reasons why only Mercedes works team has the Phase IV engine at the moment, not the customers like Williams.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/10/r ... tled-team/

Logistically it will be impossible for Ferrari to supply straight away. They also have no appetite for it.
Same applies to Mercedes.

The 2 options as I see it are Red Bull leave, or they do a grovelling about-turn and continue with Renault.
JET set

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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I think it's like you say, both companies have no appetite for it. That's what's so frustrating, the stubbornness in F1.
No team, manufacturer, or any other party is willing to put an effort into what's good for F1, although it's hard to blame them.

The logistics, although complicated, are just an excuse in my opinion. For testing each team needs 1 or 2 engines (Merc themselfs did only use 1 engine in 2016 for testing). If Ferrari and Mercedes would supply one extra team each, that should be no problem. Surely those critical items are extremely complicated, but I don't buy the story that a 600+ workers PU facility such as Mercedes HPP can't produce and extra engine over the 5 they're set to produce for the first pre-season test. If they wanted they could. It's not as if they have to design additional parts.

SunsAnvil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Well, we should not forget that Mercedes provided engines to Brawn and Ferarri to Manor. For sure they will not have an appetite to supply a team with engines that would blow them away but that is what Brawn did...

More likley they don't have an appetite to supply a company that will openly criticise them in public when things go wrong!

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The_table
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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If renault buy lotus the renault engine will stay in F1 and because now they are investing even more money they wil probably do everything they can to make their PU competitive. (unless they become renault mercedes for some reason...)

And renault CAN supply red bull AND toro rosso...so what is the problem?
I honestly think that red bull should mend relationships with renault while working on a deal with a new engine manufacturer OR wait until the engine freeze.

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mclaren111
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Excellent:

Image

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME wrote:I think it's like you say, both companies have no appetite for it. That's what's so frustrating, the stubbornness in F1.
No team, manufacturer, or any other party is willing to put an effort into what's good for F1, although it's hard to blame them.
The issue of responsibility to either Mercedes or Ferrari is a non starter in my view.

The whole saga stems from Red Bull's stubbornness to accept Renault in the new PU era. And the fact that Honda have not being approached at all, indicates this is not just about getting an engine, but the best engine.

So if we speak about what is good for F1, is it good that a team can effectively blackmail the entire sport with a quit threat if it does not receive "the best engines"?
I can imagine that Force India, Sauber, Ferrari, Mercedes, Williams and Manor will not blink an eye should Red Bull quit.

The reasons are not only numerous but profound.
Exiting FOTA to make the RRA an irrelevance and thereby increasing the expenditure to compete.
I think that a few years ago we had FOTA operating in a very good way,” said Fernley in a press conference today. “It was a consolidated approach, it was well stewarded by (then McLaren team principal) Martin Whitmarsh, we were in joint negotiations with CVC at the time to obviously renegotiate those contracts and everything else”.

“Unfortunately, and I say that because obviously Christian is here, Red Bull felt the need to take the forty pieces of silver. And that was the downside, I think, for Formula One, and I don’t think we’ve recovered from that particular action.”
They did their own thing. Where was the health of the sport an objective here? It was self interest.

As was the reasoning behind leaving FOTA, which officially lay at FOTA being"irrelevant". But on closer inspection was due to mandatory audits to ensure adherence to the RRA.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-au ... f1-budget/
Earlier this year, boss Christian Horner denied claims the team flouted the FOTA-governed cost savings agreement by as much as EUR 60 million in 2010. Autosprint said the suspicion is that Red Bull broke the agreement by filing contentious information about its structure and workforce. The magazine cited "sources" in claiming Red Bull figures have attempted to stop the Capgemini audit because it is an "invasion of privacy" requiring the release of "sensitive data"
Again evidence of self interest. In the general context of "self interest", every team has it. From Mercedes and their secret tyre test(FIA approved...), to Ferrari and their veto/special deal(bernie approved..)
But then Ferrari and Mercedes do not make demands of supply or threaten to quit, and then cite the health of the sport as their objective.

They ditch their supplier(self interest), and it becomes Ferrari and Mercedes responsibility to be "good" for F1 and start a supply?
That's a little contrary wouldn't you say?
JET set

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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Foxhound, although I don't really disagree with almost all the above (I do have some remarks here and there), I do disagree with your last paragraph. You know just as well as me that Ferrari threatened to quit (emphasis on threaten) and that Mercedes demanded behind closed doors the current engine formula as they implied, subtly, to quit if they stuck to the V8. The new engine formula is a consequence from that, and where Red Bull terminated the RRA, others have further increases the cost with that new formula.

Let's make one thing very clear: in the end all the big teams act and will act as Red Bull: out of their own interest. Nobody will aid the sport if it is not motivated out of their own needs.

Again, I agree that Ferrari and Mercedes have very much the right to deny to deliver. But criticizing Red Bull for asking competitive material does not sit right either, since asking is not forcing the other parties to positivily respond to it.

In all honesty, this game to blame is getting very tiresome. It is so typical for a crisis: everybody blames everybody with nobody the guts to make a quick end to it, whether that end is positive or negative.
#AeroFrodo

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Phil
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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This is precisely where the sport or the regulators need to step in and make some hard choices. They need to ask themselves how viable the current formula and its climate is. As a sport - and that includes Mercedes and Ferrari too - they must ask themselves what impact it has to potentially lose two teams that contribute massively to the sport. But by far the most important point is that the regulators come in strong and give a sense of perspective to what will come and how these issues can be dealt with. It's important, because there needs to be a sense of direction, not only for the current teams inside F1, but also potentially car manufacturers that might want to join, which was one of the reasons behind this new V6T formula in the first place.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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turbof1
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Phil wrote:This is precisely where the sport or the regulators need to step in and make some hard choices. They need to ask themselves how viable the current formula and its climate is. As a sport - and that includes Mercedes and Ferrari too - they must ask themselves what impact it has to potentially lose two teams that contribute massively to the sport. But by far the most important point is that the regulators come in strong and give a sense of perspective to what will come and how these issues can be dealt with. It's important, because there needs to be a sense of direction, not only for the current teams inside F1, but also potentially car manufacturers that might want to join, which was one of the reasons behind this new V6T formula in the first place.
I agree. However, with all the power so much decentralized, it's very difficult to achieve something for the greater good. The FIA sold 2/3 of its voting power in 2014. I think it will go down as the biggest mistake in F1's history.
#AeroFrodo

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:Wall of text..
Chill, I said I basically agreed with your previous statement, and also that I do not blame Ferrari/Merc for their unwillingness (to supply their latest PU's in best-configuration). Why the quoting, massive text, and question aimed at me?

My point was, if they wanted they could deliver engines in time. The reasoning why not is merely a lame excuse.

I do think 2016 engines with Strat 1 & 2 disabled is a good middle-ground for everyone to settle on.