Formula One's Engine Crisis

[alexx_88]

Their intent is more powerful.

Bernie will help someone when it serves his interests. In this case, losing RB & TR would hurt the product he's selling. Getting them a decent PU would the product's value, getting them a very competitive PU would increase said product's value.

A few teams gently requesting a change in regulations puts no pressure on anyone. Bernie knows nobody would pull out because of this.

[turbof1]

I'd counter that and say spirit of intent does hold sway in F1.

If you disagree, look at Bernie running around like a blue arse fly trying to keep Red Bull from their "intent" to quit.

If you disagree, look back at the glorious 'succes' of last year trying to reduce costs. Bernie has nothing to offer to both Red Bull or any supplier to negotiate a deal. I intend on keeping Red Bull in F1 too, but I'll make as much difference in it as Bernie will.

I'm sorry if that sounds pessimistic, but intents have only rarely come to fruition in F1. Either something happens, or it does not. We had a letter of intent from Renault buying Lotus. That has still not come to fruition. Think for a moment with my pessimistic mind what I personally think of it.

@Alexx: exactly that.

[FoxHound]

Let's just say you both have no faith in politics

[Just_a_fan]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-ma ... es-summit/

Let's see what comes out of this.

Most likely scenario, no one agrees on anything.

Note on that it has to go to the F1 Commission, which contains all the teams. All of those have to agree on the proposed changes.

Renault: "Hey Red Bull, would you help us one last time and vote in favour of it?"

The irony is that it is likely to be a Mercedes customer team that votes against a change. If you're paying for the best engine on the grid would you vote for changes that might diminish your chances in the mid field pack? There's potentially a lot of money riding on it for a small team that finishes mid field because of the engine. Asking them to agree would be like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas!

[proteus]

Aparently same spec engines of works teams for costumers are about to be used in the next season, not sure how will they achieve this (how will they control it)..FIA probably kicking itself in a knee again

[turbof1]

Aparently same spec engines of works teams for costumers are about to be used in the next season, not sure how will they achieve this (how will they control it)..FIA probably kicking itself in a knee again

Quite simple: the FIA seals the PUs when they are going to be used. They get to view all the technical details of all the PUs used during the season. So that's quite solid.

What can create unequality concerning PU hardware, is updates to the PU for safety, cost or reliability, which do not require tokens and is allowed throughout the season.

[oT v1]

The FIA should take all the engines for the year and then play 'PU bingo' for each team that uses them. No more Ferrari giving Sauber the scraps and hopefully Marussia with an absolute beast.

Remaining engines in the unused pool are updated in-line with factory team changes

[NL_Fer]

Aparently same spec engines of works teams for costumers are about to be used in the next season, not sure how will they achieve this (how will they control it)..FIA probably kicking itself in a knee again

The standard ECU can monitor every detail of the engine. Uitputted torque, injected fuel, air amount taken in, throttle response.

[PlatinumZealot]

Aparently same spec engines of works teams for costumers are about to be used in the next season, not sure how will they achieve this (how will they control it)..FIA probably kicking itself in a knee again

Let us wait to see if it is upheld next year...

[Gatecrasher]

There goes another season for Honda... not going to catch up easily now. F1 was a fair and open competition until one team dominates and is also controlling the rules.

[bhall II]

Aparently same spec engines of works teams for costumers are about to be used in the next season, not sure how will they achieve this (how will they control it)..FIA probably kicking itself in a knee again

Since homologation doesn't cover software, fuel, or lubricants - and fuel alone is worth 40bhp in some cases - there's no incentive for manufacturers to issue substandard PUs to customers. If a works team wants to keep clients at bay, it's completely legal to withhold those components in order to do so. (Whether or not the individual supply contracts allow it is a different story.)

[djos]

I'd counter that and say spirit of intent does hold sway in F1.

If you disagree, look at Bernie running around like a blue arse fly trying to keep Red Bull from their "intent" to quit.

It's not like others don't have form, Renault threatened to leave if F1 didn't move to small turbo charged engines and now they've screwed up their implementation of the v6 is it any wonder RedBull are angry?

Even Mercedes threatened to leave if small turbo engines weren't introduced.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/06/f ... n-the-air/

"The solution is palatable to Ferrari – whose legendary V6 turbos powered Gilles Villeneuve in the 1980s – and Mercedes as well as Renault, who had threatened to leave the sport if it didn’t move to small turbo engines."

So basically Renault threatened to quit and then screwed the pooch implementing what they asked for. *golf clap*

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1 ... -rages-on/

"Renault is threatening to pull out of Formula 1 if the much-discussed new 1.6-litre, four-cylinder turbo engine formula for 2013 is not soon confirmed by the FIA. "

"Renault is the only enthusiastic supporter of the tiny turbo concept, which has failed to attract interest from new manufacturers. Both Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz prefer V8s or at least V6s, and everyone is worried about the costs of building and developing new engines"

So fox, how's that for irony?

[FoxHound]

I'd counter that and say spirit of intent does hold sway in F1.

If you disagree, look at Bernie running around like a blue arse fly trying to keep Red Bull from their "intent" to quit.

It's not like others don't have form, Renault threatened to leave if F1 didn't move to small turbo charged engines and now they've screwed up their implementation of the v6 is it any wonder RedBull are angry?

Even Mercedes threatened to leave if small turbo engines weren't introduced.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/06/f ... n-the-air/

"The solution is palatable to Ferrari – whose legendary V6 turbos powered Gilles Villeneuve in the 1980s – and Mercedes as well as Renault, who had threatened to leave the sport if it didn’t move to small turbo engines."

So basically Renault threatened to quit and then screwed the pooch implementing what they asked for. *golf clap*

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1 ... -rages-on/

"Renault is threatening to pull out of Formula 1 if the much-discussed new 1.6-litre, four-cylinder turbo engine formula for 2013 is not soon confirmed by the FIA. "

"Renault is the only enthusiastic supporter of the tiny turbo concept, which has failed to attract interest from new manufacturers. Both Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz prefer V8s or at least V6s, and everyone is worried about the costs of building and developing new engines"

So fox, how's that for irony?

Irony? It's not even close.


Here's a portrait you may find interesting...
Imagine 3 engine manufacturers using the same engine for 8 years in more or less frozen form.
All 3 engine manufacturers grew tiresome of the same engine and an inability to be able to make a difference with an important aspect of the car.
What is F1 if there is an 8 year old V8 in the back of a fancy F1 car? Largely redundant to Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes.

The principle of any engine manufacturer being involved in F1 is not simply just to make engines, but also to be possible to develop an engine(tokens do allow for development, as do reliability and cost reasons).
So if you are going to take this away from all of the engine guys for 5 of the 8 years of V8's, what incentive are you giving them to stay? None.

Imagine freezing an aero concept for 5 years, and allowing the uncompetitive teams to close the gap, but allowing engines to be the dominant factor. Do you think it would've taken 5 years for the quit threats to emerge?
It's not even the end of year 2 with Turbo's, and Red Bull have been threatening to quit for 6 months.

[turbof1]

My god, would there please come an end to this saga? People, I reopened the red bull team thread as a dumping place for this discussion. Please use that instead of contaminating other threads like this one!

[Phil]

Imagine 3 engine manufacturers using the same engine for 8 years in more or less frozen form.
All 3 engine manufacturers grew tiresome of the same engine and an inability to be able to make a difference with an important aspect of the car.

Unfortunately the sport is larger than just those 3 engine manufacturers. We have (customer) teams who were perfectly happy with frozen engines. Why give more weight to an attribute entirely outside their control?

With this argument, you're demonstrating nothing but the point that every company/entity will do what is in their best interest: an engine-manufacturer wanting to make their core-expertise a larger factor, a racing-team their expertise in the field of building the car from everything from chassis to aero components. In that sense, it's entirely logical that Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari will push for rules that benefit them (on the engine side) where as (customer) teams that don't develop engines will either want competitive ones or if not, will at some point question if this formula is still in their best interest or not and its investment is justified.

And this is something the sport needs to address as a whole.

If the rules are changed (or circumstance lead) to the point that we will see the difference in performance between these PU narrow to the point it can be equalized by the sum of other factors on the car, the customer teams (even RedBull) will be happy. If this does not happen, the cliff between the haves and the haves not will further increase to the point the sport might fall entirely apart. It can not survive with Mercedes and Ferrari being the sole competitors with the rest of the grid showing up as a formality to "fill the grid".