Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[r101]

This is speculation, but Renault does not have a 'team' thread right now so I will leave it here.

Either people at Renault are headless chicken, or they have something they do not want to show right now..

Third option would be playing a game with Bernie (we will quit and leave Lotus stranded, so give us that money/tokens/whatever).

They killed of FR 3.5, Infinity/Total RB sponsorships, signed cash cow Maldonado, so what seems most logical?

[Blackout]

Autosport news contradict AMuS 'informations'
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121408

[ME4ME]

I hope Red Bull decides to use this new Power Unit, so we can see if it's any good..

Personally I have very low expectations. But if Renault has improved, that would make a Red Bull-Renault lineup next year somewhat more probable.

[r101]

All upgrades were made with 2016 in mind, according to that Autosport article. It does not mean all of them will increase power right away, or only combined with some components that will come next year.

[Blackout]

Exactly. Especially if the 2016 PU is very different from the current one/not a simple evolution...

[ME4ME]

With 12 tokens to spend, some performance gains should be made.

Besides this could very well be the base of Renaults 2016 debut engine, since in-season development is allowed and 32 further tokens available. Honestly if no progress has been made, they should think twice about buying Lotus and committing to F1.

[Juzh]

With 12 tokens to spend, some performance gains should be made.

Besides this could very well be the base of Renaults 2016 debut engine, since in-season development is allowed and 32 further tokens available.

All those tokens did them no good coming into 2015, did they?

[Blackout]

That's another story. Renault says it gained 0.5s between 2014 and 2015 and some engineers say Renault could unleash 25hp in july (thanks to a new fuel, stronger pistons and maybe a new flow meter) the reliability problems caused by the dyno unreliability in Viry and AVL and the rushing of some updates (thanks to RBR) at the start of the season, delayed that progress.
Many of the 20 first tokens have not been spent on the cylinders. They spent some of them on the ERS (motors and battery) which has proven to be competitive, the compressor; and the now legal varaible trumpets...

[ME4ME]

All those tokens did them no good coming into 2015, did they?

Hence my earlier statement

Personally I have very low expectations.

[Juzh]

That's another story. Renault says it gained 0.5s between 2014 and 2015 and some engineers say Renault could unleash 25hp in july (thanks to a new fuel, stronger pistons and maybe a new flow meter) the reliability problems caused by the dyno unreliability in Viry and AVL and the rushing of some updates (thanks to RBR) at the start of the season, delayed that progress.
Many of the 20 first tokens have not been spent on the cylinders (they spent some of them on the ERS, which has proven to be competitive and the now legal varaible trumpets)...

"renault says". Renault has said a lot of things these past years.
"rushing updates" is the most silly here. So the solution is what? Be even further behind and be content with just laying back?
And what has variable trumpets brought in terms of performance? Ferrari don't have it and they're miles ahead.

"they spent some of them on the ERS, which has proven to be competitive"
Provide data or possibly some onboard action with telemetry overlay. Or are you again going off of what renault "has said" again? What I can tell you with 100% certainty is that their ERS deployment was utter garbage in monza 2015 compared to what they had in 2014.

[djos]

Stumbled across this interesting article on AMuS, which in many ways is relevant to the RedBull situation:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 40969.html

2015er Motor schlechter als Vorjahresversion

Dann stehen da noch die Egos im Weg. Dietrich Mateschitz und Renault-Konzernchef Carlos Ghosn müssten über den eigenen Schatten springen. Und Red Bull müsste eine weitere Saison ohne echte Siegchancen akzeptieren. Einer der Gründe für die Trennung war, dass Renault technisch keine Perspektiven aufzeigte. Messungen in Montreal haben ergeben: Der diesjährige Motor ist schlechter als die Version von 2014.

Die im Spätsommer 2014 versprochenen sieben Zehntel Zeitgewinn allein vom Motor sind nie auf der Strecke angekommen. Auch weil Renault wegen der vielen Motorschäden zu Saisonbeginn die Leistung reduzieren musste. Auf Mercedes fehlen zwischen 60 und 80 PS. Der Renault V6-Turbo verbraucht mehr Sprit, und er geht häufiger kaputt. Alte Probleme, die längst gelöst schienen, kehrten wieder zurück. Zum Beispiel der Ärger mit den Kolben.

....

Renault wollte sich aber auch nie richtig helfen lassen. Red Bull hatte für knapp zwei Millionen Euro eine Entwicklungshilfe im Zylinderkopf von Ilmor finanziert, die Renault trotz besserer Resultate kurzfristig ablehnte. Es gab im Sommer die Chance, einen Mercedes-Ingenieur abzuwerben. Sie verstrich ungenutzt.

...

Von den 12 Entwicklungs-Token, die Renault in diesem Jahr zustanden wurde bis jetzt noch kein einziger eingelöst. Ein Renault-Ingenieur sagte zu auto motor und sport im Sommer: "Es ist nicht eine Frage der Token, sondern der Umsetzung. Wir haben genug Token, aber keine Lösungen."

Der Versuch, 4 Token in eine Ausbaustufe zu investieren, die zuerst in Sochi, dann in Austin debütieren sollte, brachte bislang ernüchternde Erkenntnisse. Kaum Zeitgewinn, Motorplatzer am Prüfstand und bei weitem nicht die Langlebigkeit, die das Triebwerk bräuchte, um die Rennfreigabe zu bekommen. Eine abgespeckte Version soll jetzt in Brasilien Premiere feiern. Angeblich werden dafür zwei Token eingesetzt. Renault prognostiziert einen Fortschritt von 0,15 Sekunden.

I'm too lazy to do a word by word translation, but will cover some of the points that is covered in the article (Entire article is on Renaults situation):

• 12 tokens are still unused by Renault
• RedBull and TR is worth 50 million to Renault if they continue an engine deal
• Adrian Newey seems to think that the "divorce" between them and Renault has progressed too far to turn back - 'they would need to make big improvements, but no clear direction can be made out on Renaults behalf on how they are going to achieve that'
• "Experts" are unsure if Renaults option to buy Lotus is going to be exercised
• 2015 Renault engine worse than 2014 one - shown by tests conducted in Montreal
• Promises as of Summer 2014 of 7 tenths improvements through the engine alone were never fullfilled, also because Renault, due to many reliability concerns had to decrease power for reliability
• There's a gap of 60-80hp to Mercedes - the Renault has a higher fuel consumption and breaks more easily
• Problems that should have been rectified are back again, namely with the pistons
• Renault never wanted to be helped; Apparently, RedBull was willing to invest 2 million into engine development (Cylinder head) from Ilmor, but was declined by Renault on short-notice
• There was also an opportunity in Summer to poach a Merc engineer but wasn't acted upon
• From the 12 tokens Renault had available this year, none were used so far
• A Renault engineer said in late summer to AMuS that the problem isn't tokens, but that they have no solutions
• The attempt to use 4 tokens for development that should have been debuted in Sochi, then Austin, were thrown overboard because they didn't bring the expected results: Barely improvements, issues on the dyno, and not the longevity that would meet the requirements for a race-spec engine. A half version of those developments will be expected at Brazil now that will use 2 tokens. Renault expects a 0.15s improvement from that engine.
• Many in the paddock question if Renault will be around in 2016. There are speculations that Carlos Ghosn might pull the plug. He may make that decision based on the fact that it's not worth to invest 3 digit million sums when the engineers can't come up with solutions. Lotus would need to go back to Mercedes [for engine supply].

And some folk around here wonder why RedBull have given Renault a severe verbal kicking this year - if that article is accurate (and imo it does pass the sniff test), then RedBull are fully justified in being very very angry with Renault!

[Blackout]

You think 20 tokens did no good and I just showed you that other people, not only Renault, think those token did bring some gains, after the delays, and I explained those 20 tokens were not used on the ICE which is the PU's achilles heel, so it's another reason that explains why the gains seem limited.
About the ERS, it's not Renault, Spa showed it's good, AMuS via Ricciardo said it's good, Piola too and... Aldo Costa.

Edit: double faceplam. Just read the previous posts djos.

[Juzh]

ERS was also good last year in spa. Your point here?
Tokens might have brought performance in some areas compared to renault themselves, but overall still lost more ground compared to ferrari and mercedes. End result is the same = 2015 unit is "worse" than 2014 was. Don't get me started on reliability. The supposed "fact" RB pushed them into aggressive development is also laying on renault's shoulders for being so incompetent RB literally saw no other option.

I'm starting to think you're a renault employee or something. Much like foxhound seems to be merc's.

[djos]

That's another story. Renault says it gained 0.5s between 2014 and 2015 and some engineers say Renault could unleash 25hp in july (thanks to a new fuel, stronger pistons and maybe a new flow meter) the reliability problems caused by the dyno unreliability in Viry and AVL and the rushing of some updates (thanks to RBR) at the start of the season, delayed that progress.
Many of the 20 first tokens have not been spent on the cylinders. They spent some of them on the ERS (motors and battery) which has proven to be competitive, the compressor; and the now legal varaible trumpets...

Ask yourself why RedBull demanded Renault implement those developments ... Clearly that answer is Renault weren't planning to bring any to the 2015 season and RedBull were rightly unhappy that Renault had made no development progress for the 2015 season.

[Juzh]

To demonstrate just how utterly bad renault's ERS was in monza:

https://vimeo.com/138892993
7:50

Also, If you watch entire vid you can compare any end of straights speeds when the speed shows up and you'll see how much of a difference there is between renault and ferrari. RB also carried only like half the wing angle.