Formula One's Engine Crisis

[Jonnycraig]

Bernie really does need to go. I'm fairly certain that none of the teams would welcome having to redesign the entire rear end (and probably the front end as well due to altered aero) to accommodate a V8 engine. And we'd lose Mercedes and probably Renault and Honda too leaving only Ferrari of the current engine suppliers.

Could Ferrari supply the entire (reduced in all likelihood) grid with engines at this short notice? Of course not and Bernie knows this. Statements like this just make the sport look disorganised and don't do any favours to the public view of it outside of hard-core fans.

Eh? Renault would love to have the old V8s back, as would Honda despite their bravado about how they will end up with the best V6. Even Mercedes would be happy with the V8s back, if Bernie could ensure they retained their advantage at the front...

Such is the quandary the sport is in at the moment. Mercedes want the V6 as it will in all likelyhood lead to them cleaning up until 2020, everyone else wants new engines, or at least freedom of development in the hope of being able to compete for titles. Both camps are ruled by self interest, and so the only way any change could ever happen would be by FOM stepping in as Ecclestone mentions and taking the financial and PR hit to correct their regulatory errors.

[turbof1]

Eh? Renault would love to have the old V8s back, as would Honda despite their bravado about how they will end up with the best V6. Even Mercedes would be happy with the V8s back, if Bernie could ensure they retained their advantage at the front...

They would not. Remember, Mercedes and Renault pushed for these engines. The reason why is that V8's don't have any road car relevance for them. The current model atleast provides them a R&D platform to translate the tech into (future) road cars. F1 is basically both R&D and marketing for the manufacturers.

Just leading with outdated engine tech is not going to cut it for anyone.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yeah, they spent millions on these engines, they want their return on investment. The least Bernie should do is force the rule makers to put less restrictive rules instead of forcing the V8's.

[Facts Only]

Ironically, what Bernie wants is what we (as fans) want too; A closer competitive field. It makes it more exciting, which in turn is easier to sell and make more money (for him).

Bernie wants money and power, nothing else.

[dans79]

Ironically, what Bernie wants is what we (as fans) want too; A closer competitive field. It makes it more exciting, which in turn is easier to sell and make more money (for him).

Speak for yourself, I want a true competition based on rules, not the automotive equivalent of WWE.

[FoxHound]

Ironically, what Bernie wants is what we (as fans) want too; A closer competitive field. It makes it more exciting, which in turn is easier to sell and make more money (for him).

Bernie wants money and power, nothing else.

Yes, that's Bernie's end game. If he at any point wanted what the fans wanted, he'd have abolished pay per view and lowered venue fees for organisers.
The only reason Bernie is flapping is to keep Red Bull in F1, and to maintain his position of dominance.

[FoxHound]

And we'd lose Mercedes and probably Renault and Honda too leaving only Ferrari of the current engine suppliers.

Lose them? That's not the goal. The goal is to get them to concede power. The goal is to force those profiting at the moment to concede power. This is negotiating in the most basic sense; You threaten something you know no-one wants and you find a compromise somewhere in the middle.

Ironically, what Bernie wants is what we (as fans) want too; A closer competitive field. It makes it more exciting, which in turn is easier to sell and make more money (for him).

What point would Honda, Mercedes, Renault and even Ferrari have to be in F1? A motorsport with not 1 bit of emphasis on the motors?

How's that for irony?

[Jonnycraig]

Eh? Renault would love to have the old V8s back, as would Honda despite their bravado about how they will end up with the best V6. Even Mercedes would be happy with the V8s back, if Bernie could ensure they retained their advantage at the front...

They would not. Remember, Mercedes and Renault pushed for these engines. The reason why is that V8's don't have any road car relevance for them. The current model atleast provides them a R&D platform to translate the tech into (future) road cars. F1 is basically both R&D and marketing for the manufacturers.

Just leading with outdated engine tech is not going to cut it for anyone.

Renault pushed for these engines and have gotten it catastrophically wrong. If you offered them the V8s and encumbant off throttle blown diffusers, they would snap your hand off. Success in F1 will do more for Renaults sales figures and thus bottom line than all the R&D possibilities in the world, that's before you mention the negative PR of their disastrous V6 performance.

[ME4ME]

What point would Honda, Mercedes, Renault and even Ferrari have to be in F1? A motorsport with not 1 bit of emphasis on the motors?

How's that for irony?

Prestige, brand recognision, TV-time etc. Even if all engines were equal in power like the V8's, there are reasons for them to be in F1.

[turbof1]

Eh? Renault would love to have the old V8s back, as would Honda despite their bravado about how they will end up with the best V6. Even Mercedes would be happy with the V8s back, if Bernie could ensure they retained their advantage at the front...

They would not. Remember, Mercedes and Renault pushed for these engines. The reason why is that V8's don't have any road car relevance for them. The current model atleast provides them a R&D platform to translate the tech into (future) road cars. F1 is basically both R&D and marketing for the manufacturers.

Just leading with outdated engine tech is not going to cut it for anyone.

Renault pushed for these engines and have gotten it catastrophically wrong. If you offered them the V8s and encumbant off throttle blown diffusers, they would snap your hand off. Success in F1 will do more for Renaults sales figures and thus bottom line than all the R&D possibilities in the world, that's before you mention the negative PR of their disastrous V6 performance.

The issue is that a V8 is not in line with their road car models. Renault is known for smaller engines, hence why the current engine fits the company image better. The top management at Renault will see that too. Yes they burned their hands on the current concept, but equally going back is neither an option. Imagine the image damage if they returned to the V8 while they pushed so hard for the current format. They'd be much better off quiting F1 all together. Not that I want that, for the record.

[FoxHound]

What point would Honda, Mercedes, Renault and even Ferrari have to be in F1? A motorsport with not 1 bit of emphasis on the motors?

How's that for irony?

Prestige, brand recognision, TV-time etc. Even if all engines were equal in power like the V8's, there are reasons for them to be in F1.

Brand recognition and prestige in F1 comes from good performance and titles. Ask Toyota, Honda and BMW how their multi billion dollar F1 sojourn went.

TV time is worthless unless you are getting results, and can actually have a detrimental effect on a brand if they aren't matching expectations.

[FoxHound]

They'd be much better off quiting F1 all together. Not that I want that, for the record.

That's quite the statement.

If they quit and Mercedes nor Ferrari are forthcoming, it leaves Honda who are contractually obligated to sole supplier status with McLaren.

Meaning Red Bull would have to quit too.

[ME4ME]

Brand recognition and prestige in F1 comes from good performance and titles. Ask Toyota, Honda and BMW how their multi billion dollar F1 sojourn went.

TV time is worthless unless you are getting results, and can actually have a detrimental effect on a brand if they aren't matching expectations.

My point still stands though - emphasis does not necessarily have to be on engines for it to make sense for manufacturers to be in F1.

[Jolle]

I don't see the new engine regulations as a engine crisis. In 2008 or something we had: Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Ford, Renault, Toyota, Cosworth and Honda. Then the banks crashed and we were left with Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Cosworth. Brining back the V8 where BMW, Honda, Ford and Toyota left won't bring them back.

[Andres125sx]

Also realise that if Honda, Renault and Ferrari stay in F1, they would have eventually gained on Mercedes anyway. Mercedes voted in favour of 32 tokens, no 2016 development restrictions and inseason development. They voted essentially for something you see unfair for them.

Come on Turbo, you know exactly why they did this. The overwhelming response to them winning has been calls to either limit them in some artificial way, or to make it easier for the others to catch up faster. Thus given the option of having the rules thrown out and erasing their advantage overnight, or compromising in the hopes of stretching out the advantage they have, they made the choices that most benefits them.

That´s what you call egalitiarianism?

Mercedes enjoy that advatage becasue of two reasons

1- They did an awesome job building the best PU by far
2- Token system

But you seems to ignore point 2. Without restrictions all manufacturers would have developed their PU a lot more, for example Honda would have solved their mgu-h problems in first third of the season, and maybe next season they could be title contenders, but the token system does not allow it so Mercedes will have one less competitor next season.

Ferrari could have developed their PU during 2014, but they couldn´t because of the token system, so Mercedes enjoyed an easy season without real contenders. Same for 2015, instead of Ferrari catching up past season and fighting for the title this season, they were forced to wait until this season to catch up. Another easy season for Mercedes.


What you call egalitarianism, I call it untie manufacturers hands so they can do their job and fight Mercedes in real world conditions