Formula One's Engine Crisis

[turbof1]

I think what we have currently on the table is a good starting point: inseason development of PU plus opening up of aero rules in 2017, all taken in considerate moderation. We'll have to see how it pans out.

Is there any news on when the F1 Commission meets to decide on the proposals of the manifacturers meeting? This weekend?

[Gaz.]

An other possibility would be to tackle the engine dominance through opening up the aero rules.

You only have to see the way the Merc engines cars pull away from even the very good Ferrari's in a straight line to realise Aero isn't going to help. Either fully open development is required, or a change of engines. That's IF you are of the belief that F1 needs 4-6 cars at the front with close performance, which understandably most Merc fans aren't.

Development was fully open from 2010 to Feb 28th 2014 and Mercedes opened up a gulf between them and Renault & Ferrari. During the restricted 'token years' Ferrari have got closer to Mercedes and further from Renault. Personally I'd love fully open regs that a car must fit in a box of X by Y by Z with 130kg of juice and no weapons but realisticly that isn;t going to happen either.

[lebesset]

early in the year it was announced that Ilmor were working on developing the ICE for renault and that was expected to be ready after the summer break ; cylinder head modifications were mentioned at the time
is this is what has been installed in the updated ICE which is available for Austin ?

could be the delay has been either at ilmor or mecachrome who actually manufacture the renault engines

[NL_Fer]

An other possibility would be to tackle the engine dominance through opening up the aero rules.

If (and I emphasise the if) Mercedes already have the best Aero package AND they have the most money to spend on Aero development opening up the Aero rules will just allow Mercedes to pull even further ahead.

The only thing keeping Mercedes pegged to a ~1sec advantage is the tight Aero and PU rules, open them up further and the field will just spread out more with Mercedes further out front, Ferrari would stay close but those two teams would be in a different league.

Nah, Mercedes' current aero succes is based on the compact engine, same for Williams and Force India. Looking at 2013 performance, i think with any other engine in the back, aero would be the same level als the other top teams.

More aero allowance, where the pu size factor is made smaller, would make aero more important and pu less. This would make it possible for Redbull to make up for a little power deficit.

[Jonnycraig]

With Ricciardo saying the the new Renault 11 token update isn't worth taking a penalty for, and Amus claiming it's only worth 0.15 sec per lap, we can comfortably surmise that Renault would snap your arm off for the v8s to return.

[djos]

early in the year it was announced that Ilmor were working on developing the ICE for renault and that was expected to be ready after the summer break ; cylinder head modifications were mentioned at the time
is this is what has been installed in the updated ICE which is available for Austin ?

could be the delay has been either at ilmor or mecachrome who actually manufacture the renault engines

No Renault rejected Mario illien's work completely.

http://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/renaul ... pe-option/

[lebesset]

early in the year it was announced that Ilmor were working on developing the ICE for renault and that was expected to be ready after the summer break ; cylinder head modifications were mentioned at the time
is this is what has been installed in the updated ICE which is available for Austin ?

could be the delay has been either at ilmor or mecachrome who actually manufacture the renault engines

No Renault rejected Mario illien's work completely.

http://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/renaul ... pe-option/

maybe if all the renault designed upgrades using nearly all their tokens is only worth 0.15 secs they should have listened to super mario !
who knows what the deal with Ilmor is , could be ...if we use it we pay , if we don't we won't

[Phil]

That's the problem with fuel caps and fuel flow limits. It's a lot difficult to make big gains on efficiency. And efficiency is always key, because having more power at the expense of higher fuel consumption (if we didn't have any fuel flow limits) would level itself out to a degree. Then you also have the issue that 3 manufacturers decided to go with 3 different design choices. Some design philosophies are probably just inherently better than others. Maybe Renault is finding out the hard way that their chosen path offers less gains?

They also have the added problem that they are not their own factory-team, so any changes they make to the engine will always be dependent on the independent design/aero/chassis choice of their customer teams. If they were their own factory team, like Mercedes and Ferrari, they would have absolute control in executing any PU development with the car in its entirety. In this new Formula, that the car needs to work as a whole is more important than ever.

[Postmoe]

There is one thing that cannot be denied: since the arrival of the new engines, the technical focus has changed and I would say the result is quite good.

Pure aero analysis was boring, difficult to visualize and very monotonous IMO. This is more holistic and heterogeneous, wich is better. Aero is still important but we don't have ellipses everywhere. So... lets hope token development in-season will limit Mercedes dominance and perhaps F1 will be able to get quite a comeback.

[FoxHound]

early in the year it was announced that Ilmor were working on developing the ICE for renault and that was expected to be ready after the summer break ; cylinder head modifications were mentioned at the time
is this is what has been installed in the updated ICE which is available for Austin ?

could be the delay has been either at ilmor or mecachrome who actually manufacture the renault engines

No Renault rejected Mario illien's work completely.

http://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/renaul ... pe-option/

Did you read the story Djos?

They have not rejected it completely!

Renault has decided against adopting a prototype design produced by engine guru Mario Illien, but has not ruled out using some of his concepts in its future Formula 1 power units.

Why would Renault decline a hand if it meant an advance better than they already have planned?

Abiteboul clearly explains why.

I think collaboration is good, It is good to work with people outside, because there is no way you can improve inside if you do not put yourself in competition but also in partnership with people that are outside. So first – it is good to get an external look, and support and feedback.
But right now in our current engine, or the engine that is coming, there is nothing which is coming from Ilmor.
But that is not to say there won't be anything in the future, or that it has not had a positive influence on what we will be doing at the end of this season.
On the relationship with Ilmor, I am not saying it has no value. What I am saying is that for the time being, there is nothing proven which will be used in the engine that we will be using.”

[turbof1]

They have not rejected it completely

They have rejected it for the time being, with no guarantee for future concepts. Let's not be too hopefull either.

[Phil]

Who knows how complex it is to "accept outside help". What does the work from Illien represent?

- how do you handle IP?
- will this just give fuel to any arguments then made afterwards that the Renault product is only a success due to outside help?
- is Illiens work something that would benefit RedBull or limit them to be the sole team to using those "enhancements"?
- how costly are they in regards to token usage? are they short-term focused or part of a bigger development goal?

My point being, it's easy to think that any enhancement to the engine is automatically good. What is easy to forget however is that these PU are much more than a simple single component. They follow a certain design concept that has a big impact on the chassis/car around them. Perhaps Illiens work have some of this in mind in regards to the RedBull, but not what Renault perhaps wants to achieve under the assumption they acquire the Enstone team and can optimize more to their advantage for 2016.

Lots of complex questions. 2 dimensional thinking isn't enough when you are dealing with these complex questions...

EDIT: All this talk on Illien should be in the Renault V6 topic.......

[FoxHound]

Perhaps Illiens work have some of this in mind in regards to the RedBull, but not what Renault perhaps wants to achieve under the assumption they acquire the Enstone team and can optimize more to their advantage for 2016

And it is becoming apparent, Mario Illien is running a full blown engine research programme within Red Bull at Milton Keynes.

Yup, you read it here...not first...TJ13 has been beating the drum on this for sometime now, and I have mentioned it here on a couple of occasions, and got ridiculed by mods and peers alike.... :-"
But Building 9, is now the location of a Red Bull funded engine project.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/06/red-bu ... -for-2016/

Meanwhile, Mario Illien of Ilmor fame has been working in Red Bull’s building 9 for most of 2015 and has a team of some 50 strong engineers alongside him. Yet it is surely a bridge too far for Mario and Red Bull to develop their F1 V6 turbo hybrid power unit in what would be just about 12 months?

Obviously been the pedantic a$$, I researched a little more, and found myself balls deep in some Sky and FT.com clippings.
Wayyyy back in June 2014, stories circulated, Red Bull set the project up and have confidentiality clauses regarding most aspects of the project.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12475/ ... rks-outfit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e15bdce6-9bfa ... z3pO9LK04H

Ilmor Engineering said on Wednesday it was restricted by confidentiality agreements from commenting on the collaboration. But Red Bull, one of the teams that used the Renault engine last season, has confirmed the link-up. It will give Renault access to Mario Illien, Ilmor’s co-founder and a long-time F1 engine designer.

And with Illien heavily invested in "single cylinder" research at Building 9, within Red Bull, how easily can this be relayed into a full blown manufacturer project? It's just a step away now...
It should also be mentioned that Ilmor engineering can be integrated very swiftly into Red Bull for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Ilmor engineering is a stones throw away from Milton Keynes, at Brixworth.
Ilmor staff are currently working with Red Bull at building 9, integration would be a formality.
Ilmor are a limited company with direct sale-ability.
They would be cheaper than other options such as Ricardo engineering, Cosworth or Mahle.
Pedigree.



With Pankl and AVL being cited as possible suppliers to any F1 engine programme....
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/f1-helmu ... 015/18116/


Finally...

EDIT: All this talk on Illien should be in the Renault V6 topic.......

Nah, not when it cannot be clearly ascertained what Illien is doing. Everything done at Red Bull cannot be deemed just for Renault.
The thread is of an "engine crisis". Here is Red Bull doing something about a "Red Bull's engine crisis", which I feel is way more appropriate name to the thread, given that it is only Red Bull who is upset with the current engines(costs aside).

[FoxHound]

They have not rejected it completely

They have rejected it for the time being, with no guarantee for future concepts. Let's not be too hopefull either.

With ideas and concepts possibly having a role to play in future updates.

[turbof1]

They have not rejected it completely

They have rejected it for the time being, with no guarantee for future concepts. Let's not be too hopefull either.

With ideas and concepts possibly having a role to play in future updates.

And I read that as "absolutely no guarantee for future updates." Let's not forget this is F1: nice in your face, spits at your back. It'll keep Renault on the moral high ground by making that claim.