Formula One's Engine Crisis

[Juzh]

+1 on what Foxhound said. If RB are so good "if only the engine..." then why are STR matching them in engine-neutral situations?

Tires, car damage, SCs, stupid decisions on RB pitwall.

[Manoah2u]

+1 on what Foxhound said. If RB are so good "if only the engine..." then why are STR matching them in engine-neutral situations?

Tires, car damage, SCs, stupid decisions on RB pitwall.

you're forgetting something key important:

Max and Sainz.

[NL_Fer]

+1 on what Foxhound said. If RB are so good "if only the engine..." then why are STR matching them in engine-neutral situations?

STR is largely a copy of RBR, traction out of corners, suspension, electronics are the same. Redbull is only slghtly better on highspeed/high downforce area's like Silverstone, Spa. STR has even little less drag, so they gain on straights.

[OneAlex]

Copying Indycar engines would put quite the knock in the F1 claim of being the 'pinnacle' of Motorsport, certainly in engineering terms, wouldn't it?

This is one of my main problems with the idea.

The engine situation is one of the bigger messes in the current mess that is F1, so being a mess I can almost agree with every viewpoint.

Is it unfair to the four engine suppliers who have put so much work into the 1.6's? Yes. Is it slightly down to their own doing by controlling who gets what and how much it costs? Yes. Is it right to expect a lower cost-cap? Yes and no, yes for smaller teams, no if that's simply what the state-of-the-art technology costs. Was this crises bound to happen? Likely. Has Red Bull's actions brought it about that much sooner? Probably.

Then again if engines are the biggest hit in money, they could always change the way they distribute F1's earnings and practically give everyone free engines, but that's another topic...


My biggest concern though is that Bernie is trying to rush this through because he's an old dinosaur who's openly hated the new engines and recovery systems since they came in and would much prefer to have old dinosaur engines back and this gives him the perfect excuse to make it happen.

While more suppliers of cheaper engines independent of the control of the top racing teams can only be good for the sport, I can see Bernie taking the tender specifications TOO far and causing F1 to take a giant step backwards technologically, causing it to basically become "Indycar for Autocratic States".

You never know, Bernie and Todt may actually handle this tender sensitively and the 2.2's will compliment the existing engines nicely and combine the tech into something relevant to modern cars. But it's Bernie. "Dictatorships are good, gays should stay away from children, we could drop Imola, we're going to Azerbaijan" Bernie.

[PlatinumZealot]

RedBull need to make their own engine. Why didn't they realize this from 2011? Have someone like Cosworth or Porsche build it? Too late perhaps?

[Just_a_fan]

The reality through this whole debacle is that there is no F1 engine crisis; there's only a RedBull engine crisis. They got used to winning and when it ended they got all huffy and threw their toys out of the pram.

The only reason this alternative engine idea has surfaced is because Bernie is scared of losing power to the manufacturers. He's saying "I'm in charge and if you forget it then I'll mess you around". He forgets one important point: the people he is annoying can live without him but not vice versa

[i70q7m7ghw]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12474/ ... cost-limit

Well this is a crying shame. The first sensible step in the right direction and everyone was in agreement for once, except for Ferrari... Idiots.

If they had set the max price they could have opened up the engine development regulations without having to worry about crippling the customer teams with the costs. What a complete lack of foresight by Ferrari.

[Phil]

dans;
1.) the unwillingness to give a potential competitor competitive engines or not at all
2.) this will lead to RedBull and TorroRosso most likely leaving the sport (-4 cars)
3.) with 4 cars less, we're under 20, so we might see 3 car teams by Mercedes and Ferrari.
4.) Assuming Mercedes dominance, this will lead to probably front 3 lock-out by Mercedes more often that not. Even if we assume Ferrari can be competitive, it will further push down the remaining teams to probably position 7 and below. This will further increase the problems in the sport, possibly pushing out more teams until...
5.) Mercedes and Ferrari then have to supply 4 car teams?
6.) Rinse and repeat until the weaker remaining competitor(s) has/have enough and call(s) it a day.

1.) this is how the free market works
2.) I personally don't care, and as polls has shown most people don't either.
3.) this is really only a problem for Bernie, as a fan having at least 6 competitive cars is better than only 4.
4. through 6.) Jesus man you are super pessimistic about this stuff.

Pessimistic?

In 2014, Mercedes had 12 1-2 finishes from 19 races. If we discount the DNS in Melbourne, the brake issues in Canada, Singapore and Abu Dhabi DNF and the various other qualifying issues, they'd have had a straight 1-2 finish in all races of the season. In 2015, Mercedes has had 8 1-2 finishes so far from 16 races. Not quite as good as 2014, but not that much worse. Lets look at average finishing positions in 2015:

Hamilton: 1.67
Rosberg: 2.5
Vettel: 2.73
Kimi: 5

That is the average counting the races they did finish. If both Mercedes and Ferrari supply 3 cars, yes, based on their performance in 2015, we can assume Mercedes is likely to fill the podium more often than not, and we can assume that Ferrari as the 2nd strongest team and only other competitive factory team will likely be in close contention for positions 4-6. Thus the logical, not pessimistic conclusion is that all remaining teams will be pushed down by 2 positions. If this happens, I will guarantee you Ferrari will not be happy about this long-term if they fail to make the podium on such a regular basis because they will have 3 strong Mercedes car ahead of them. How happy will the teams further behind be?

What we are also missing is that if these two teams supply 50% more cars, they automatically have 50% more data, 50% more time in that sense during testing and races and, during races, a much higher probability of receiving significantly more tv-time as a result vs those teams that only have 2 cars. The higher degree of data gathering through a F1 weekend will mean that these teams will be further strengthened by supplying one more car opposed to those that don't. Of course they are ready to step in for "the good of the sport". It's just that the simple F1 fan lacks the obvious foresight to see where this will lead to and what kind of an increased unbalance this causes.

[Andres125sx]

I can see Bernie taking the tender specifications TOO far and causing F1 to take a giant step backwards technologically, causing it to basically become "Indycar for Autocratic States".

This! =D>

[wickedz50]

dans;
1.) the unwillingness to give a potential competitor competitive engines or not at all
2.) this will lead to RedBull and TorroRosso most likely leaving the sport (-4 cars)
3.) with 4 cars less, we're under 20, so we might see 3 car teams by Mercedes and Ferrari.
4.) Assuming Mercedes dominance, this will lead to probably front 3 lock-out by Mercedes more often that not. Even if we assume Ferrari can be competitive, it will further push down the remaining teams to probably position 7 and below. This will further increase the problems in the sport, possibly pushing out more teams until...
5.) Mercedes and Ferrari then have to supply 4 car teams?
6.) Rinse and repeat until the weaker remaining competitor(s) has/have enough and call(s) it a day.

1.) this is how the free market works
2.) I personally don't care, and as polls has shown most people don't either.
3.) this is really only a problem for Bernie, as a fan having at least 6 competitive cars is better than only 4.
4. through 6.) Jesus man you are super pessimistic about this stuff.

Pessimistic?

In 2014, Mercedes had 12 1-2 finishes from 19 races. If we discount the DNS in Melbourne, the brake issues in Canada, Singapore and Abu Dhabi DNF and the various other qualifying issues, they'd have had a straight 1-2 finish in all races of the season. In 2015, Mercedes has had 8 1-2 finishes so far from 16 races. Not quite as good as 2014, but not that much worse. Lets look at average finishing positions in 2015:

Hamilton: 1.67
Rosberg: 2.5
Vettel: 2.73
Kimi: 5

That is the average counting the races they did finish. If both Mercedes and Ferrari supply 3 cars, yes, based on their performance in 2015, we can assume Mercedes is likely to fill the podium more often than not, and we can assume that Ferrari as the 2nd strongest team and only other competitive factory team will likely be in close contention for positions 4-6. Thus the logical, not pessimistic conclusion is that all remaining teams will be pushed down by 2 positions. If this happens, I will guarantee you Ferrari will not be happy about this long-term if they fail to make the podium on such a regular basis because they will have 3 strong Mercedes car ahead of them. How happy will the teams further behind be?

What we are also missing is that if these two teams supply 50% more cars, they automatically have 50% more data, 50% more time in that sense during testing and races and, during races, a much higher probability of receiving significantly more tv-time as a result vs those teams that only have 2 cars. The higher degree of data gathering through a F1 weekend will mean that these teams will be further strengthened by supplying one more car opposed to those that don't. Of course they are ready to step in for "the good of the sport". It's just that the simple F1 fan lacks the obvious foresight to see where this will lead to and what kind of an increased unbalance this causes.

Exactly what Alonso had predicted when he has left Ferrari... Ferrari will always remain second best!! F1 is never going to be the same as it was 5-7 years back.

[Andres125sx]

Pessimistic?

Yes I think so too. You´re assuming Mercedes advantage will remain constant when....

In 2015, Mercedes has had 8 1-2 finishes so far from 16 races. Not quite as good as 2014

The advantage can only go down as the rest of manufacturers develop their PUs further. Diminishing returns.

Once they´re developed enough, even past season PUs will be competitive, and small teams will have the option to buy competitive PUs at affordable prices

[Phil]

Pessimistic?

Yes I think so too. You´re assuming Mercedes advantage will remain constant when....

You're focusing on Mercedes when the real crisis point of my post was in regards to the other non-factory-teams. So even if we assume that Ferrari and Mercedes might be closer - it still doesn't change that it is very likely that all other teams will be pushed further down as a result of the two top teams filling the grid with an extra car. Adding to that point, I mentioned how supplying an additional car translates into more data that in itself can be used to further extrapolate the advantage they already have.

Again: The crisis isn't highlighted by concentrating on the two only competitive factory-team that want to supply the grid with an extra car. We need to look at the entire grid and how 3 car teams affect them to understand what will happen and what impact it has. Look at it from Williams perspective. Saubers. Force-Indias. McLarens. The next Renault team. Ok I guess if you don't care about those cars on the grid, but losing those teams will only increase the problems we have even more. How does this make the sport any more attractive for other companies to want to join? At what point do you step in and make correction to a sport that is on the path of destroying itself?

What I also find rather interesting is that despite the occasional races where Ferrari has been competitive and able to win in convincing manner, on most other instances when they did not, the gap between the fastest Mercedes and the fastest Ferrari was rather large.

[Andres125sx]

Wait a minute Phil... So you want non factory teams fighting with factory teams? Sorry but that will never happen. Midfielders are midfielders for a reason, and you can´t change that. If they want to fight with factory teams they must invest same amount of money than factory teams and become factory teams reaching some deal with some manufacturer, like McLaren has always done.

But I was thinking the problem was about competition between factory teams. Ferrari is getting closer, Renault is returning to F1 as a factory team, and McHonda in the only one we know they will get closer for sure because they´re so far that´s easy :p So factory teams will get closer to each other, so I don´t see the 3 cars of X team doing 1-2-3 consistently.

Basically I think the most dominant period of current V6T PUs was first season, and from that start the grid will get closer each season so I don´t see any big problem apart from costs, but this is F1, costs have always been a problem and will always be, that´s the nature of the supposed pinnacle of motorsports

[Phil]

Wait a minute Phil... So you want non factory teams fighting with factory teams?

Where did i write anything like that? I am following the line of logic what will happen if as a direct consequence of Redbull and TR both leaving F1 due to not getting a PU and the two top teams then supply 3 cars as a result to artificially fill the grid, as both have publicly said they would. I think we owe it to this thread to constructively analyze where all roads lead if this "crisis" continues on the path it is.

[turbof1]

Any action in regards of changing the rules is too late now for both Red Bull and Toro Rosso - the only thing that can keep them in F1 right now is a deal with any of the current manufacturers, based on the current rules. A V6T 2.2l in 2017 is not going to help them for next year.

Andres has a point that the law of diminishing returns will play a big role. Eventually Renault and Honda will find close on Mercedes and Ferrari. Especially now since development has opened up. There is however a danger that Mercedes or Ferrari suddenly find itself making a big leap in technology and getting a sudden boost and advantage.