Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[Phil]

What we've seen from Renault is a focus on improvement, and it's one not unlike the very common practice of abandoning the development of a stricken chassis after it becomes clear that resources would be better spent on the next year's design.

I don't necessarily disagree. I do think however it's a legit question to ask who was to benefit the most from how Renault chose to tackle their PU development. Was it Renault acting as a potential factory-team in 2016, as a partner of RedBull fighting for improvement, competitiveness, points, progress - or both, if that's even possible if you may be dealing with two different goals that aren't necessarily compatible with each other?

Lets look again at McLaren - on some level, the engine turned out the way it did due to the design goals that McLaren set. We've heard similar stories in regards to the Ferrari PU - the factory team had certain design goals in regards to aero which influenced how the PU was packaged. How do we know that RedBull and Renault wanted different things and at some point Renault abandoned the design road RedBull was demanding?

Again, I don't blame either. It's just the unfortunate consequence of two entities with different goals.

What I think is most upsetting about how 2015 turned out in regards to Renault and RedBull is that there was absolutely no progress from what can only be described as a troubled 2014 season. One would think that Renault would have already known where their deficit lies and followed up with improvements for the season start in Melbourne. We've seen this happen with Ferrari. And from what I'm reading, the Ferrari and Renault PU are far more similar in their design compared to the Mercedes. How was it possible for Ferrari to make such a big step forward and Renault to absolutely stagnate to the point one could call it a step back?

[Skippon]

Clearly Renault have not found out some of Mercedes 2014 power unit secrets, whereas Ferrari have, i.e. there has been engineers leaving HPP for Ferrari but not Renault or indeed vice versa

[basti313]

In my point of view you are overthinking this. Renault is earning money with these engines now. No way of competing with the Merc in the next years. So why should they push much money into the development? Renault followed this path since years, they did not hire 100 new engineers to build the best engine. They hired only enough engineers so that they can build an engine that can be sold.

[Pierce89]

Pz wrote:

That mobil one fuel was only a rumour. Mercedes HPP only allowed petronas fuel in the merceds engine because at the end of the day its his them who have to service those engines. I think andy cowell or was it pat symmonds said all the mercedes engines ran the same fluids. There was no disadvantage to any of the customers.



This goes against everything I've heard. Do you have a source?

[zack!]

In my point of view you are overthinking this. Renault is earning money with these engines now. No way of competing with the Merc in the next years. So why should they push much money into the development? Renault followed this path since years, they did not hire 100 new engineers to build the best engine. They hired only enough engineers so that they can build an engine that can be sold.

I don't think renault is earning money, nor doesn't want to make the best engine. Renault want to make the best engine _and_ not invest as much as competion to do so (choose if it is because their arrogant about their skills, or if they are lacking money, or both).
I think in this project, they fundamentally agree with caped budget, and are ready to compete at a certain level budget with others. The problem (for them) is that mercedes had invested from a long time ago on this PU, and so they started far ahead of competition. Now renault need to spent more to catch mercedes, but with tokens rules, it is difficult.
If Renault wants to have its own team, it is not to do bad PR, but for good one, that is, to win WCC. So they still think they can catch mercedes.

[bhall II]

We've heard similar stories in regards to the Ferrari PU - the factory team had certain design goals in regards to aero which influenced how the PU was packaged.

You mean like the story I just mentioned?

I think you've got the cart before the horse here, because the sort of integration work you've described requires access to data that's presently only available to Renault from Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Additionally, it wouldn't benefit anyone for Renault to abruptly change course toward a design that's incompatible with work that's already been done or represents a fundamental shift from layout decisions that have already been made. To do otherwise would be to essentially start again from scratch, and it's a bit too late in the game for that (and has been for a quite a while). The lead times are simply too long.

In fact, it would still behoove both parties to somehow revitalize the partnership. Making something else work, in whatever form(s) that might take, would represent yet another setback by default.

[NL_Fer]

In my point of view you are overthinking this. Renault is earning money with these engines now. No way of competing with the Merc in the next years. So why should they push much money into the development? Renault followed this path since years, they did not hire 100 new engineers to build the best engine. They hired only enough engineers so that they can build an engine that can be sold.

I don't think renault is earning money, nor doesn't want to make the best engine. Renault want to make the best engine _and_ not invest as much as competion to do so (choose if it is because their arrogant about their skills, or if they are lacking money, or both).
I think in this project, they fundamentally agree with caped budget, and are ready to compete at a certain level budget with others. The problem (for them) is that mercedes had invested from a long time ago on this PU, and so they started far ahead of competition. Now renault need to spent more to catch mercedes, but with tokens rules, it is difficult.
If Renault wants to have its own team, it is not to do bad PR, but for good one, that is, to win WCC. So they still think they can catch mercedes.

Renault is no premium like Mercedes, maybe they just want to be "in " f1, midfield, sometimes a podium. I don't they need to be a champion to achieve their goals.

[zack!]

Renault is no premium like Mercedes, maybe they just want to be "in " f1, midfield, sometimes a podium. I don't they need to be a champion to achieve their goals.

Of course they want to win, as they did in the past, either as engine supplier or work team.
Either just because of their "sporting spirit" or the "hybrid best of class" image they want.
Renault-Nissan is 4th car company in the world (biggest than daimler mercedes).
But I recknon they don't want to spend too much to achieve that.

EDIT : and renault-nissan and daimler are in industrial partnership, there is a cross shares owning, and agreement to provide mutually parts (ie renault provide engine to mercedes cars).

EDIT2 : renault-nissan has sold 200.000 electrical car (leaf and Zoe), nissan hybrid technology will be deployed into renault vehicules in 2018. They want to be #1 at world wide level, and so competing with toyota.

[Facts Only]

That mobil one fuel was only a rumour. Mercedes HPP only allowed petronas fuel in the merceds engine because at the end of the day its his them who have to service those engines. I think andy cowell or was it pat symmonds said all the mercedes engines ran the same fluids. There was no disadvantage to any of the customers.

It wasn't a rumour its definitely true, I know that for a fact. Mclaren ran Mobil fuel in 2014 and it did cost them horsepower. FIF1 ran Petronas and Williams despite having Petrobas on the car also ran with Petronas fuel.

[Phil]

Of course they want to win, as they did in the past, either as engine supplier or work team.
Either just because of their "sporting spirit" or the "hybrid best of class" image they want.

I think the point wasn't in regard to the Enstone team, but in regards to the higher ups (meaning Renault as a cooperation), those that foot the bill.

Winning comes at a cost.

You need resources, you need money and you need a plan that comes in form of time and an investment. Mercedes did exactly that from the day they decided to buy the Brawn team, accumulate the expertise, invest and create pressure on making these new engine formula possible. Of course everyone wants to win. But at what cost? For a team like Mercedes who are building up a brand image from the success they are enjoying makes it worth while. How much the cost justify the means depends on the company, the market you are selling in etc. Not saying that Renault doesn't want to win, but the cost and level of investment on their part is not the same as it is for Mercedes or any other team. It's dependent on their ability, the resources and know-how they have.

It's a legit question to ask. If we take a midfield team like Sauber, even Williams, Force-India - their goal is probably to have a sustainable F1 'business'. Be able to race, but at the end, they can't afford to spend more than they earn through price-money and sponsorship. So their expectations are obviously lower and so are their goals. They are not by any means in any realistic position to fight for a world-championship. Perhaps if circumstance enabled them to do, but not on any financial level, not in this f1 climate and formula.

RedBull are one of those teams that have made the kind of investment into F1 that results in winning world-champion titles. Which is also why they are as vocal as they are. Customer teams like Williams, Force-India, Sauber, those that are even dependable on their suppliers because they lack the money and therefore "power" are less vocal because they would be careful to bite the hand that is indirectly feeding them.

[bhall II]

Powering the World Drivers' Champion since 2005...

Ferrari: 1
Mercedes: 4
Renault: 6

Powering the World Drivers' Champion with greater budgetary efficiency than rivals since 2005...

Ferrari: 0
Mercedes: 0
Renault: 6

[Renault] perhaps don't have the budget of some of the others but they have been prudent in how they spend it.

To question a company's commitment to purpose on the basis of what would ordinarily be cited as evidence of superior all-around performance is baffling, to say the least.

[Phil]

Bhall, isn't that rather simplistic? You're effectively dumbing down data to make a very far fetched point. You're effectively comparing a period with frozen engines where the budget of the engine supplier was rather insignificant in regards to winning the championship with a period (and a citation of that specific period) where it is. What is your point?

[Cold Fussion]

And yet they all still employed hundreds of engineers, spending hundreds of millions a year during that time of frozen engine development.

[bhall II]

Bhall, isn't that rather simplistic?

It's no more or less simplistic than looking at perceived budget outlays as if they're tea leaves that predict the future or entries in a diary that speak to intent.

What you've really said here is that Renault doesn't do things the way you think they should be done, therefore Renault is wrong. What I've really said here is that recent history doesn't support your claim.

[Phil]

What you've really said here is that Renault doesn't do things the way you think they should be done, therefore Renault is wrong.

I think there are two very different arguments being made here. Your above sentence in that context isn't really correct. I didn't say they are wrong - I said they don't match the expectation of their customer. Who is right or wrong? I've always maintained the point that neither can be blamed for differing expectations. The customer in this example is reliant on the supplier. That is their point of view, a higher level of investment within this new engine formula perhaps from their perspective doesn't make sense, as they won't be able to reap the same level of rewards as Mercedes and Ferrari with their own factory teams for maximum exposure. That might change when they enter as a factory team.