Formula One's Engine Crisis

[dans79]

I'm really not a fan of Bernie but he does have a sense for Business. And this sense tells him F1 is heading somewhere unhealthy.

Lets' be honest here, Bernie doesn't care one iota how much it costs. The only thing he cares about is making sure he meets his contractual obligations for the minimum number of cars on the grid.

[turbof1]

So are you(and Phil) stating categorically that these teams are suffering due to PU's?
Because I have just proven in actual fact customer teams suffer in spite of the PU. It should also be worth noting, that the pay driver trend started in a frozen and cheaper engine formula.

Where oh where have I said that? Teams are suffering due F1 being too expensive in general. Anything that frees up budget without harming performance, to be spend on more performance will do.

I also am a bit mystified how in earth you were reasoning to subjects I have never touched. i'm quite confused .

Btw, FI and Sauber did not went to the EU Commission for cheaper engines. They want a bigger slice of the pie from the FOM. I'm not questioning any engine contracts.

[Cannonballer]

I concur with Andres125sx.

I am unable to comprehend the argument that a team/manufacturer should be required to share their engine (or any other components they developed) with a competitor; and for far less than the cost of development.

As far as I can remember Formula 1 has always been at least a two, perhaps three, tiered affair. The bottom half of the grid has never had any hope of competing for the championship(s). The fight for championships has always been a competition between a few teams at the top, with the rest fighting amongst themselves for the scraps.

[dans79]

Teams are suffering due F1 being too expensive in general. Anything that frees up budget without harming performance, to be spend on more performance will do.

That's the point though, to expensive in who's opinion?

I'm sure if you asked every team principle that's ever been involved in F1 since day 1, you would find a lot of people would tell you it was to expensive. I think you would also find interesting trends between what they say and how they finished in the championship.

[turbof1]

Teams are suffering due F1 being too expensive in general. Anything that frees up budget without harming performance, to be spend on more performance will do.

That's the point though, to expensive in who's opinion?

I'm sure if you asked every team principle that's ever been involved in F1 since day 1, you would find a lot of people would tell you it was to expensive. I think you would also find interesting trends between what they say and how they finished in the championship.

There's a line where teams do not get enough income for self preservation. They go bankrupt due they cannot bear the costs. Yes, you can point on mismanagement in many cases, but in as many cases the issue is there simply was not enough revenue to cover even basic costs.

I feel that it stops being too expensive when the all teams can cover their basic costs: materials, employees, suppliers, travel costs and developing next year's car.

[NL_Fer]

I still don't understand, why some people here would advocate that f1 should only be for the manufacturers to compete for the championship. Yes this is motorsport, but a racing team and a 500 Million sponsor should be able to compete, even without his own enginebuilder.

[dans79]

I feel that it stops being too expensive when the all teams can cover their basic costs: materials, employees, suppliers, travel costs and developing next year's car.

I have to disagree with this, as basically you are saying if you make it to the grid once, then you become the new benchmark of how expensive f1 should be. This gives no allowance for teams that never should have made it to the grid in the first place, or are improperly managed.

[AnthonyG]

I'm really not a fan of Bernie but he does have a sense for Business. And this sense tells him F1 is heading somewhere unhealthy.

Lets' be honest here, Bernie doesn't care one iota how much it costs. The only thing he cares about is making sure he meets his contractual obligations for the minimum number of cars on the grid.

Wrong, Bernie cares about the value of his product.

[dans79]

I still don't understand, why some people here would advocate that f1 should only be for the manufacturers to compete for the championship. Yes this is motorsport, but a racing team and a 500 Million sponsor should be able to compete, even without his own enginebuilder.

If you systematically alienate your piers, and all of your suppliers (or potential) suppliers, even with 10 billion you can't compete.

[dans79]

Wrong, Bernie cares about the value of his product.

even if we go by your view, he still doesn't care how much it costs individual teams.

[Mattchu]

I still don't understand, why some people here would advocate that f1 should only be for the manufacturers to compete for the championship. Yes this is motorsport, but a racing team and a 500 Million sponsor should be able to compete, even without his own enginebuilder.

I`m not sure anyone is really advocating that F1 is only for manufacturers to be able to compete at the highest level. Imagine for instance if Force India (who have a "long term" contract with Mercedes for engines) suddenly got a wealthy new sponsor who gave them almost limitless funds for a few seasons. Maybe you`d see them suddenly at the sharp end of the grid. Unlikely Mercedes would/could drop them either.
Also lets just say next year, McLaren with the Honda engine is suddenly 1 second ahead of the chasing pack! Will the other teams suddenly want Honda engines?
Will anyone who isn`t running a Honda engine suddenly be any less of a racing team!
I`m sure many teams would love it if someone like Cosworth came out with an engine that was equal with the top engines and then offered it at 33% of the cost of what the`re paying now. Still the 67% saved would still be spent on other things....

This new hybrid formula1 is still relatively new, who knows what or who is going to be "the best" in a few years.

[djos]

The FIA and FOM do set the rules, and not the Manufacturers.

Actually, Ferrari, Mercedes, Honda and even Renault are part of setting the rules, through their respective teams (well Renault will not next year). They might not have equal voting rights individually against FOM/FIA, but they are part of it.

And let's not forget Ferrari's veto right on just about every rule change.

Let's hope that the European investigation into F1 leads to a removal off things like Ferrari being able to veto rules they don't like as that is clearly anticompetitive!

[Just_a_fan]

I'm really not a fan of Bernie but he does have a sense for Business. And this sense tells him F1 is heading somewhere unhealthy.

Lets' be honest here, Bernie doesn't care one iota how much it costs. The only thing he cares about is making sure he meets his contractual obligations for the minimum number of cars on the grid.

I think he does care about the cost - he wants people with high disposable incomes to be interested in F1. Anyone else is not on his radar.

“You have a brand that you want to put in front of a few hundred million people, I can do that easily for you on television. Now, you’re telling me I need to find a channel to get this 15-year-old to watch Formula One because somebody wants to put out a new brand in front of them? They are not going to be interested in the slightest bit.

“Young kids will see the Rolex brand, but are they going to go and buy one? They can’t afford it. Or our other sponsor, UBS - these kids don’t care about banking. They haven’t got enough money to put in the bloody banks anyway. That’s what I think.”

[Moose]

I'm really not a fan of Bernie but he does have a sense for Business. And this sense tells him F1 is heading somewhere unhealthy.

Lets' be honest here, Bernie doesn't care one iota how much it costs. The only thing he cares about is making sure he meets his contractual obligations for the minimum number of cars on the grid.

I think he does care about the cost - he wants people with high disposable incomes to be interested in F1. Anyone else is not on his radar.

Which is a major strategic failing. It's been shown over and over in the online games industry that you really really want to make your game appealing to people with low income, because they're the people who are going to be there keeping the servers full, making sure that the whales (the people who pay a lot) actually have someone to play against, and enjoy themselves with.

In short - it's important to F1 to have a large fan base. Without it, the wealthy few will lose interest too.

[FoxHound]

So are you(and Phil) stating categorically that these teams are suffering due to PU's?
Because I have just proven in actual fact customer teams suffer in spite of the PU. It should also be worth noting, that the pay driver trend started in a frozen and cheaper engine formula.

Where oh where have I said that? Teams are suffering due F1 being too expensive in general. Anything that frees up budget without harming performance, to be spend on more performance will do.

I also am a bit mystified how in earth you were reasoning to subjects I have never touched. i'm quite confused .

Btw, FI and Sauber did not went to the EU Commission for cheaper engines. They want a bigger slice of the pie from the FOM. I'm not questioning any engine contracts.

So for the record then, what is Formula one's engine crisis?