Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[turbof1]

Well if TJ13 is correct on this, Red Bull have secured an engine for 2016.
They will also develop the ERS, and co-own the intellectual property of the ICE to be developed by Ilien at Red Bull's building 9(Turbo... where you at bruv)
In effect 2 development programmes will run parallel with Renault.
Badging is mooted as Infiniti.

The whole reason they played this game was so they could get co-ownership of the Intellectual property. As far as conduct goes, ... was it worth it?

Here's the piece anyway.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclus ... -for-2016/

At this moment I'm very much still going to describe that as rubbish. They are not in the position to build it themselves. I'll not change my mind on that until a reliable source comes along.

The article implies they'll use tech from Renault to built their own engine. How do you think Renault would feel about that? I still believe we'll have red bull dropping out next year.

[bhall II]

At this moment I'm very much still going to describe that as rubbish. They are not in the position to build it themselves. I'll not change my mind on that until a reliable source comes along.

Why's that so tough to accept? Because all F1 manufacturers generally lack the necessary expertise, most specialized hardware like pistons, liners, fuel systems, etc., come from third-party vendors. It's why development is so expensive.

[Cold Fussion]

The less said about TJ13 the better in all honesty.

[turbof1]

At this moment I'm very much still going to describe that as rubbish. They are not in the position to build it themselves. I'll not change my mind on that until a reliable source comes along.

Why's that so tough to accept? Because all F1 manufacturers generally lack the necessary expertise, most specialized hardware like pistons, liners, fuel systems, etc., come from third-party vendors. It's why development is so expensive.

Because they simply lack the time at this moment to generate enough knowhow and machinery to assemble PUs. They can't just magic finger *knip* that within 3 months. Also, the source itself is rubbish to start with.

I also very much highly doubt Red Bull wants to multiply its budgets to develop their own engine. I'd rather follow Facts Only then: do a manager buy out, downsize and be less of a threat so that the manufacturer are less reluctant to give a PU. Not that I see that happening too, but it's atleast realistic.

[bhall II]

Because they simply lack the time at this moment to generate enough knowhow and machinery to assemble PUs. They can't just magic finger *knip* that within 3 months. Also, the source itself is rubbish to start with.

The whole point is that fractional ownership between Red Bull and Renault of intellectual property associated with the consortium's latest design means Red Bull is in no way starting from scratch. Not only are the upgraded power units available right now, Mario Illien can continue to develop the design exclusively for Red Bull, regardless of Renault's involvement (or lack thereof) in the future.

[turbof1]

Because they simply lack the time at this moment to generate enough knowhow and machinery to assemble PUs. They can't just magic finger *knip* that within 3 months. Also, the source itself is rubbish to start with.

The whole point is that fractional ownership between Red Bull and Renault of intellectual property associated with the consortium's latest design means Red Bull is in no way starting from scratch. Not only are the upgraded power units available right now, Mario Illien can continue to develop the design exclusively for Red Bull, regardless of Renault's involvement (or lack thereof) in the future.

Renault is going to a competitor of Red Bull next year. Not going to happen, not realistic. Dietrich Matechitz already made it very clear Renault is completely out of the picture too.

Just to show how untrustworthy TJ13 is:
http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/23/red-bu ... -underway/

As TJ13 suggested earlier this week, failing to try out the new Renault power unit clearly indicates that Red Bull have no intention of partnering with Renault in 2016. They are forfeiting valuable track time and a grid penalty free race next weekend to evaluate the progress Renault have made.

At 2 weeks time we got from no partnership with Renault at all to rebranded Renault engines with intellectual ownership carried over to Red Bull.

Let's also not discount this:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121239

But frankly when you see the way we have been treated, it's going to be a very difficult sell to my board and to my executive management to do something else to what is currently planned.

and this:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/11/03/m ... -and-slams

Speaking to the Red Bull-owned publication Speedweek, Mateschitz insisted his team’s contract with Renault for next year had been “cancelled”.

Mateschitz described the Renault power unit as “hopeless” with “pitiful” reliability and said it was around 80bhp down on the Mercedes. “The disappointment with the performance and the posturing of the French are huge,” he said. “Instead of improving after the 2014 season Renault has further fallen behind Mercedes.”

[bhall II]

It won't be the first time...

[Phil]

So we are back to what I've been saying all along then.

No one wants to give RedBull A-spec engines or engines at all. So I see a few possibilities:

1.) RedBull get to use the 2015 Renault engine
2.) RedBull get to use a B-spec Ferrari engine
3.) RedBull get to use a B-spec Mercedes engine
4.) RedBull get to use a Honda engine (no A or B spec, they only have one)
5.) RedBull are not on the grid

I see possibilties 1-3 quite likely, probably 1 to be the likeliest, due to Bernie perhaps having some leverage. That leverage might also help in regards to option 4. McLaren won't be happy, but ultimately they won't have much choice depending on what Honda's deal with Bernie was before they entered. Option 2-3 - well, if they can get B-spec engines, why not. They won't be competitive enough to either Ferrari and Mercedes and both will look like the knights in shining armor for stepping in to save the day.

If it's option 5, it's going to be a huge mess. And I'm with Turbo - I don't see anyone taking over, especially with the prospect of not getting an engine in that car.

[turbof1]

It won't be the first time...

http://i.imgur.com/oR3eEG9.jpg

But this year was the last time. I edited my post where Renault and DM stand. When Red Bull was winning championships in a time of engine freeze where the Renault engine actually gave certain advantages, there was very little to complain about from their side. Renault perhaps had a few minor issues with exposure and not being given enough credit, but that was atleast a workable relationship.

Fast track now to 2016: you are basically telling that Renault should now give Red Bull the intellectual property of their PU so that they can risk that Red Bull can outdevelop their own platform, while in a highly detoriated and even enemy-like environment?

Not going to happen. Since my bet with Facts Only got cancelled due dispute on the currency ( ), I could wager you on that .

[bhall II]

Open your eyes.

Renault keeps ICE improvements made over the last year by Mario Illien at Red Bull's expense.

Red Bull gains complete sovereignty over its development strategy moving forward.

This constitutes what's often termed a "win-win situation."

[turbof1]

Open your eyes.

Renault keeps ICE improvements made over the last year by Mario Illien at Red Bull's expense.

Red Bull gains complete sovereignty over its development strategy moving forward.

This constitutes what's often termed a "win-win situation."

Renault has denied any input from Mario already. And Renault runs a big risk of being beaten by Red Bull, which will damage the company image very badly. This is not a win-win situation. What you are suggesting is that Renault hands over a couple of hundreds of millions worth of R&D to Red Bull, basically for free. What has Red Bull done to deserve that in the first place?

Sorry Bhall, usually you make a lot of sense on these things. But not now. It will not happen. Red Bull will be out of the sport next year, or downsized to a point it is no longer Red Bull.

[bhall II]

According to French publication Auto Hebdo, Renault could keep the Lotus moniker in 2016 as the constructor inches ever closer to buying out the Enstone-based squad.

[...]

With 2016 set to be a transitional year, Renault could elect to keep the Lotus name for next year. The rationale behind such decision would be to avoid tarnishing the French manufacturer’s image in case the new outfit proves to be uncompetitive.

Horner claimed over the Mexican GP weekend Honda is "very keen" to supply Red Bull, while prior to that McLaren racing director Eric Boullier said his team "is not a charity foundation" that has to solve problems "created by Red Bull".

Mateschitz added: "There remain a few complicated solutions, however I do not know if I should be going through these."

Horner stated "there may be something else" available as an option to Red Bull for 2016, although Mateschitz denied rumours of the team being sold to Renault.

Autosport understands a Renault engine deal remains an option to Red Bull, as the French manufacturer is yet to confirm the split.

Despite initially encouraging results, Renault believes that its own design solutions actually offer a bigger chance of progress.

Renault F1's managing director Cyril Abiteboul said that while he welcomed the help from Illien, his company would not be adopting his design in full.

“I think collaboration is good,” Abiteboul told Motorsport.com. “It is good to work with people outside, because there is no way you can improve inside if you do not put yourself in competition but also in partnership with people that are outside. So first – it is good to get an external look, and support and feedback.

“But right now in our current engine, or the engine that is coming, there is nothing which is coming from Ilmor.

“But that is not to say there won't be anything in the future, or that it has not had a positive influence on what we will be doing at the end of this season.

“On the relationship with Ilmor, I am not saying it has no value. What I am saying is that for the time being, there is nothing proven which will be used in the engine that we will be using.”

Take from it all what you will. My point here is that the idea isn't nearly as implausible as it might seem on the surface.

[turbof1]

Sometimes we try to see what we want to believe in contradictions. Admittingly I have fallen for that in the past.

It does not mean it's stupid to do so, au contraire even. The best way I can describe that is explaining how people reason when they play poker:
-Does the opponent have a better hand?
-Does the opponent bluffs he has a better hand?
-Does the opponent acts like he bluffs he has a better hand, while actually having a better hand?

Given actions and words from both Red Bull and Renault, I feel that the ground is as cold and hard as the surface.

For what it is worth, staying with Renault would by far be the easiest and least taxing in terms of next year's car. James Allen made a beautiful article on that: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/11/t ... 1-testing/

Awesome to read btw; it really gives insight on the lead times.

However, that does not change that the water is simply too deep.

[bhall II]

Poker vagaries notwithstanding, I've noted that reality before...

I think you've got the cart before the horse here, because the sort of integration work you've described requires access to data that's presently only available to Renault from Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Additionally, it wouldn't benefit anyone for Renault to abruptly change course toward a design that's incompatible with work that's already been done or represents a fundamental shift from layout decisions that have already been made. To do otherwise would be to essentially start again from scratch, and it's a bit too late in the game for that (and has been for a quite a while). The lead times are simply too long.

In fact, it would still behoove both parties to somehow revitalize the partnership. Making something else work, in whatever form(s) that might take, would represent yet another setback by default.

[turbof1]

Poker vagaries notwithstanding, I've noted that reality before...

I think you've got the cart before the horse here, because the sort of integration work you've described requires access to data that's presently only available to Renault from Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Additionally, it wouldn't benefit anyone for Renault to abruptly change course toward a design that's incompatible with work that's already been done or represents a fundamental shift from layout decisions that have already been made. To do otherwise would be to essentially start again from scratch, and it's a bit too late in the game for that (and has been for a quite a while). The lead times are simply too long.

In fact, it would still behoove both parties to somehow revitalize the partnership. Making something else work, in whatever form(s) that might take, would represent yet another setback by default.

In all honesty, I think both Red Bull and Renault are more then willing to take any setbacks along, then staying with eachother. Renault looks to be aiming for 2017, given they will not make a name change (I believe they actually used the same tactic with Benetton back in the 2000's) next year, and sacrifice 2016 as a development year.