Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[dans79]

There are a few news outlets running similar stories....Joe Saward has a piece up with some interesting quotes from Horner.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/16444/?

I respect Joe's work a great deal. Something worth noting, is he didn't make any of the claims the other site did, nothing even close. All he did was write an opinion piece.

[FoxHound]

There are a few news outlets running similar stories....Joe Saward has a piece up with some interesting quotes from Horner.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/16444/?

I respect Joe's work a great deal. Something worth noting, is he didn't make any of the claims the other site did, nothing even close. All he did was write an opinion piece.

Yup that's true, but then he can't claim source material from TJ13 who broke this.
But Saward is very much in agreement with sections of F1technical that Red Bull have avenues to build an engine themselves.

[bauc]

https://twitter.com/SportmphMark/status ... 9124770816

[turbof1]

It's very nice opinion piece. Joe Saward is what can be called one of the few journalists who are reliable, knowledgeable and above else intelligent. Above else it's not a rumor nor an assumption he is spreading. He makes it very clear in the title it's an opinion on the possibility of Red Bull digging into the road car market.

It's a theoritical exercise, and a good one. Let's not confuse that with reality. Assume for a moment Red Bull tries to outsource it to several manufacturers. To what kind of time table are we looking at before they have a functional and complete PU that can reasonably participate -participate, but not compete- in F1 races? I assume the timetable stretches the more you outsource it since it requires all the independent suppliers to work in synergy. I assume the ICE is the easiest task, but you cannot reasonably participate alone on that. You only have 100kg of fuel so you need the heat and brake energy to complete the race. It took Honda more then a year to develop a PU that can participate, but that was mostly inhouse. The production of the parts I assume are pushed to suppliers, but the development is the biggest time eater, which Honda did inside their own company. If Red Bull pushes that outside to several parties, it'll probably take more then a year.

Red Bull does not have a year. It does not have 5 months. If Dietrich keeps word, they only have 3 weeks to find a solution. Let's go crazy and assume Renault delivers unbatched ICE, maybe even with TC. They handed over the easiest task over to Red Bull, but the team will somehow still need to find suppliers to develop and produce the other parts.

I hope they find a solution, I really do. I hope they see a solution which I don't.

Also I'll eat humble pie if I get proven wrong on any of this. Anyone who disagreed with me is free to rub it my face the first half of next season . If it keeps the 2 teams in F1 I'll gladly take it.

[FoxHound]

Turbo, they are already and have been developing parts since Illien arrived. Unless he has just sat at Building 9 twiddling thumbs the last 11 months.
Red Bull have had this planned all along.

[bhall II]

Outsourcing components is common to every F1 engine manufacturer.

Ferrari gets turbochargers from Honeywell. Pistons, cylinder liners, fuel rails, etc., come from Mahle. SKF supplies bearings, gaskets, lubrication systems, and so on. ERS and electronic components are from Magneti Marelli. NGK supplies spark plugs and ignition components. The team is advised by AVL. No one does this stuff in-house.

Figuratively speaking, switching from Renault-led development to Red Bull-led development ought not require too much more than updating the various accounts' billing addresses.

Also, remember that no one is under any illusion that the situation is in any way ideal - I think. Whoever coined the phrase, "desperate times call for desperate measures," had something like this in mind, because it's not at all unlikely that Red Bull's 2016 season will make its 2014 and 2015 campaigns look like walks in the park. They are primed to strug-gul, but it's the only way forward at this point.

EDIT:

Red Bull have had this planned all along.

You lose me on that one. I still think the original plan was Audi all the way, and this solution is that plan's bastard child.

That said, it's not very difficult to envision a scenario in which Red Bull might have intended to offer its IP rights to Audi for further development.

[FoxHound]

Red Bull have had this planned all along.

You lose me on that one. I still think the original plan was Audi all the way, and this solution is that plan's bastard child.

That said, it's not very difficult to envision a scenario in which Red Bull might have intended to offer its IP rights to Audi for further development.

The second part of your reply Ben.

Red Bull wanted/needed a knight in shinning armour, which was to be VW. No contest this was the plan, and may actually still be.
Speculation on my part is that VW would've bought a share of the team and built it's engines on site at MK HQ. Can't be proven either way, but Ferrari have that set up, and so do Mercedes and emulation will definitely be VW-esque.Tick.

Illien is also now well accustomed to the Renault V6 to the point of designing and putting forward new combustion chambers for the engine. The problem is the engine in it's entirety, which according to Saward can be sourced from Meccachrome in the interim, which then leaves the issue of 2017 or 2018. Tick.

TJ13 speculates buidling 9 has been around since June of 2014, and even then it may have been around a lot earlier.
VW Red Bull is not new, and has been around years.
It could've been an embryonic test bed for a fully fledged VW engine programme. But since Rome was not built in a day, Red Bull began recruiting top names and large building spaces to kick the programme off. They stand to gain as much if not more than VW after all. Tick.

Then we look at the speculation that Red Bull will be utilizing their own ERS for 2016. There's no way you can do that without some level of integration between Engine and ERS, with Red Bull paying for research in house or outsourced. Either way Red Bull initiated, with them having access to the Renault ICE.

Bit long, but make sense?

[f1316]

I don't really understand why going this route would mean Red Bull would struggle. The base IP is the new, Brazil-spec Renault ICE; the engineering company charged with developing it a well-respected, F1 proven developer that has been working with the IP for a full year. We're not talking about Mario Illien with his Black & Decker in a shed.

Seems less ideal than a up to date Mercedes PU, of course, but I don't necessarily see how it's worse than continuing as the Renault works team - essentially you're starting from exactly the same material.

[godlameroso]

At the moment Red Bull is .5-.8 sec behind Mercedes, Ferrari is .3-.6 Williams is .9-1.1, I don't think Mercedes will improve much over this year, maybe another .5 seconds, so the top teams need to find a second during the winter and in development next year. If Red Bull is going to be getting base power units from Renault, and they're going to modify them it must have taken serious political weight to let the otherwise sealed units be just opened up. That is if FH is right, and if he is I think from where they are they can certainly have something competitive by the middle of next year.

[bhall II]

Bit long, but make sense?

I can definitely see how Red Bull might ultimately benefit more from this path than would've been the case with previous options. And, frankly, for as often as I'm irritated by the team's antics, I wholeheartedly welcome the potential addition of an engine manufacturer that's not inherently driven by the farce we call "road relevance."

I'm ready to be seduced by "circuit relevance" again.



It's a risk, though. If my most pessimistic suspicions are correct, and genuine parity cannot be achieved within the framework of the current ever-tightening formula, this could turn into an expensive disaster.

Seems less ideal than a up to date Mercedes PU, of course, but I don't necessarily see how it's worse than continuing as the Renault works team - essentially you're starting from exactly the same material.

It's not exactly written in stone that Red Bull is destined to struggle. But, conventional wisdom - as if such a thing exists in F1 - tells us that duplicated efforts have a tendency to greatly extend the time needed to complete a project. It's a question of available resources, and too much is not enough, especially when success requires beating teams like Mercedes and Ferrari at their own game.

If this thing happens, I think Red Bull has an awful lot of work to do.

[XRayF1]

At the moment Red Bull is .5-.8 sec behind Mercedes, Ferrari is .3-.6 Williams is .9-1.1, I don't think Mercedes will improve much over this year, maybe another .5 seconds, so the top teams need to find a second during the winter and in development next year. If Red Bull is going to be getting base power units from Renault, and they're going to modify them it must have taken serious political weight to let the otherwise sealed units be just opened up. That is if FH is right, and if he is I think from where they are they can certainly have something competitive by the middle of next year.

Heard that quote about Merc not being able to improve much last winter as well.
If that's to be true, Ferrari would be on par with them and not the .6s behind as of now.

Please also consider that Brixworth was even able to introduce a heavily revised engine, supposedly meant for 2016, spending this year's remaining tokens on something they consider worth doing.
Looking at their track record for the new PU generation, I believe they know what they are doing, hence me thinking that they will have an even more powerful PU next year when they can spend 32 Tokens again now.

There are a lot of "even ... if' in there, but the same remains true for the alleged RBR/REN-PU.
RBR will not be a serious contender next year unless they hit a bullseye on the first try.
And that's not very likely.

However, to my mind - if RBR is really doing such a thing, then the Bi-Turbo Engine idea is already dead.
And was nothing but another smoke screen by Ecclestone.
Because, I can't believe that RBR would just throw away the money needed for Illien, REN IPRs, and their own staff, just to switch engines again for 2017.

[wickedz50]

I expect this will atleast provide a good base from where RBR can start improving. This is one of the most unconventional solution which RBR has brought up and it will have to go miles to prove that this choice was better than Renault. The complete package however depends on several variables and hope Illien has the answers.
Merc will still be 0.5 to 0.8 seconds faster than 2015 in 2016 so its a hard task for Ferrari to match them. Williams might just go ahead next year. If RBR can keep their heads down on the development for 2016 they may be improving faster than anyone else on the grid to able to challenge the Merc sooner than anyone else.
They have the best chasis and the aero much superior than Ferrari.

[skoop]

according to AMuS illien denied the rumors:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34139.html

the article states that illien has been very suprised by the rumors and he doesn't know anything about it. the article further states that he hasn't been working at milton keynes

[FoxHound]

according to AMuS illien denied the rumors:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34139.html

the article states that illien has been very suprised by the rumors and he doesn't know anything about it. the article further states that he hasn't been working at milton keynes

But has been working on a cylinder concept that is compatible with the Renault block, and is paid by Red Bull. So work could be conducted out of Ilmor, with ERS work carried out at Milton Keynes.
Scarbs is suggesting Red Bull could get an off the shelf ERS system from Marelli.

[turbof1]

according to AMuS illien denied the rumors:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34139.html

the article states that illien has been very suprised by the rumors and he doesn't know anything about it. the article further states that he hasn't been working at milton keynes

Finally confirmation that we can put this kind of nonsense to rest. It's funny that when you ask the people in charge they never ever point towards either a further collaboration with Renault or an engine of their own, yet unfounded rumors start a wildfire about it. It's journalism at its worst: one completely unreliable source makes a claim, and others copy it blindly, making it seem like it gets confirmed by multiple sources.

Someone is probably now going to step in how wrong I am about it. That's their good right, but when Illien himself gets interviewing on his earth shattering engine and fully denies involvement, then I'd rather believe him.