Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[turbof1]

Turbo, to be specific... which rumours did Illien deny?

He denied specifically that Red Bull would be developing their own engine, both from scratch or from the Renault platform:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34139.html

Illien know nothing about Renault upgrade
So far, so bad. Only Mario Illien has strangely heard himself not. The Swiss Motor Pope responded surprised at the rumors and clarifies:.. "I know nothing of a dispute I also have no idea what upgrades Renault has incorporated in its modified engine Also, I can not imagine that a large company like Renault, the arrives risk, secretly install my development. "

Mario Illien had in the summer at the expense of Red Bull the cylinder head of the Renault V6 Turbo modified and achieved encouraging results, according to Red Bull so. However, Renault would rather bring its own development at the start. She ran in parallel with the Ilmor project.

Red Bull has taken the job to Ilmor nearly 2 million euros. Again, the story deviates from reality. She speaks of work on the block instead of the cylinder head. "If we had to block even touched, we would not have come with 12 token to make ends meet," Illien already told us in the summer.

Illien also denies that he would have received an engine department in Milton Keynes and that there are plans, along with Red Bull to revise the Renault engine next year. After your project has been rejected in September by Renault, Dietrich Mateschitz declared that it makes little sense to build a complete drive unit on its own it. It would take far too long in the complexity of the technology, until you reach a level of Mercedes would or Ferrari.

Again, google translated, so my apologies on that. He does not say anything about Renault just delivering unbranded PUs, but that got denied by Matechitz.

It's always possible they are lying .

[FoxHound]

I see 2 small quotes, one which says he does not have a complete engine facility at Milton Keynes, or that Renault is using his upgrades for this year's PU.

The rest is all speculation on Michael Schmidt's(AMuS) part.
Illien neither confirms or denies the IP issue, or that it would be possible to develop the engine next year.
Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say you need to change an entire block when much less can provide great returns. Nor did the TJ13 article say he was developing an entirely new engine. It's speculated the could use the newer Brazil spec PU with the full compliment 32 tokens that Illien may or may not utilise to upgrade it. Nothing Illien has actually said dispels that.

Redact Schmidt's assertions, and focus just on what Illien has said.

[alexx_88]

Thinking from Renault's perspective. What would be their incentive to give away the IP they've spent hundreds of millions to create?

[FoxHound]

Thinking from Renault's perspective. What would be their incentive to give away the IP they've spent hundreds of millions to create?

Perhaps to receive a substantial amount of money. IP will cost Red Bull, but the bigger picture is Renault's possible buyout of Lotus would yield historical payments.

My thinking is that Red Bull got Bernie involved, if we read stories it was as far back as March.
The "complex solution" we heard all parties talking about was the IP deal tied in with the Lotus sale,and Renault receiving a larger portion of historical payments than would otherwise have been possible.
Red Bull get "their" engine, Renault their team, and Bernie his full grid.

[turbof1]

I see 2 small quotes, one which says he does not have a complete engine facility at Milton Keynes, or that Renault is using his upgrades for this year's PU.

The rest is all speculation on Michael Schmidt's(AMuS) part.
Illien neither confirms or denies the IP issue, or that it would be possible to develop the engine next year.
Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say you need to change an entire block when much less can provide great returns. Nor did the TJ13 article say he was developing an entirely new engine. It's speculated the could use the newer Brazil spec PU with the full compliment 32 tokens that Illien may or may not utilise to upgrade it. Nothing Illien has actually said dispels that.

Redact Schmidt's assertions, and focus just on what Illien has said.

Illien also denies that he would have received an engine department in Milton Keynes and that there are plans

Again, there's always the possbility AMuS is lying on this. But it's effectively put down as coming out of Illien's mouth. i think that's quite clear.

[FoxHound]

It remains unquoted, and Schmidt has issued reactionary stories when other agencies break big news. That's not to discredit him, just to put in perspective.
Besides, Red Bull have a full AVL rig, why would Red Bull need to dyno test an engine if they're planning to remain as customers?
And why would they employ an engine Guru?

To remain as customers the above does not add up at all.

[FW17]

Thinking from Renault's perspective. What would be their incentive to give away the IP they've spent hundreds of millions to create?

May be

From a legal standing the powerunit became an alliance the moment Red Bull started shuffling people and money through Viry's doors, something I'm sure Red Bull's lawyers could easily deal with if needed.

[FW17]

It remains unquoted, and Schmidt has issued reactionary stories when other agencies break big news. That's not to discredit him, just to put in perspective.
Besides, Red Bull have a full AVL rig, why would Red Bull need to dyno test an engine if they're planning to remain as customers?
And why would they employ an engine Guru?

To remain as customers the above does not add up at all.

1. Did Red Bull own a Dynamometer during the V8 days? Red Bull is said to have written there own maps during the blown exhaust days so where were they tested?


2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

[adrianjordan]

It remains unquoted, and Schmidt has issued reactionary stories when other agencies break big news. That's not to discredit him, just to put in perspective.
Besides, Red Bull have a full AVL rig, why would Red Bull need to dyno test an engine if they're planning to remain as customers?
And why would they employ an engine Guru?

To remain as customers the above does not add up at all.

1. Did Red Bull own a Dynamometer during the V8 days? Red Bull is said to have written there own maps during the blown exhaust days so where were they tested?


2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

I thought the TAG engines were built by Porsche and TAG paid for the naming rights?

[turbof1]

2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

Time and complexity. In theory everything is possible, but how likely would you deem it yourself that they have to develop their own ICE, TC and ERS's within 4 months, also given that they can't develop their chassis in the meanwhile because they need to have sense of the footprint of both the PU and cooling solutions.

Nothing is impossible of course. And yes I'm saying with quite a bit of synical taste.

[FW17]

2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

Time and complexity. In theory everything is possible, but how likely would you deem it yourself that they have to develop their own ICE, TC and ERS's within 4 months, also given that they can't develop their chassis in the meanwhile because they need to have sense of the footprint of both the PU and cooling solutions.

Nothing is impossible of course. And yes I'm saying with quite a bit of synical taste.

In 1983 a 1.5 l turbo engine was as complex as it could get. The electronics were so primitive that the ECU was probably the size of a desktop computer and as powerful as today's calculator.

Mclaren were in the same situation as RBR are at the moment, no turbo engines and the cosworth DFV had finally reached the end of the line. They had to build one.

RBR can either build an engine based on Renault IP as a short route or leave F1.

[XRayF1]

2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

Time and complexity. In theory everything is possible, but how likely would you deem it yourself that they have to develop their own ICE, TC and ERS's within 4 months, also given that they can't develop their chassis in the meanwhile because they need to have sense of the footprint of both the PU and cooling solutions.

Nothing is impossible of course. And yes I'm saying with quite a bit of synical taste.

In 1983 a 1.5 l turbo engine was as complex as it could get. The electronics were so primitive that the ECU was probably the size of a desktop computer and as powerful as today's calculator.

Mclaren were in the same situation as RBR are at the moment, no turbo engines and the cosworth DFV had finally reached the end of the line. They had to build one.

RBR can either build an engine based on Renault IP as a short route or leave F1.

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/297022 ... errari.jpg

oh, RBR are quite capable of developing their own PU.
The issue right now is that if this is even remotely possible for the 2016 season.
For 2017 I entirely buy it, for 2016 am definitely not.

I see this as highly unlikely.

The Mclaren reference is a good one, though.
But even they could not do iton their first try in 1983 (last 4 races I believe), and they had the backing of a manufacturer with virtually unlimited test track time.

Having said all that, all the RBR PR speak could have been a hoax, a maskirovka, and RBR started their R&D far earlier than anyone guessed ...

[bhall II]

Thinking from Renault's perspective. What would be their incentive to give away the IP they've spent hundreds of millions to create?

May be

From a legal standing the powerunit became an alliance the moment Red Bull started shuffling people and money through Viry's doors, something I'm sure Red Bull's lawyers could easily deal with if needed.

Not maybe, exactly this. Renault hasn't given away anything; the IP rights are jointly owned.

Again, and not addressing anyone in particular, this is not an ideal solution for either side. If anything about it doesn't make sense, that's probably because it's a senseless consequence of decisions no one set out to make. Divorces are inherently ugly, and the results can't satisfy the usual F1T desire to see everything optimized to the Nth degree.

Simply put: if any part of this was based upon genuinely prudent decision-making, it's unlikely any of it would be happening at all.

[Everything, and I've processed all of it to the degree in which I'm capable.]

There will be other topics for us to discuss. But, I don't agree with your "rules of engagement" here, and I can't imagine you agree with mine. So, I think it's best if you and I just call it a day as far as this one is concerned. Fair enough?

[taperoo2k]

2) I 1983 Mclaren where not a car manufacturer but built their own engines and was called Tag so why is it impossible for the same to happen today with Red Bull?

Time and complexity. In theory everything is possible, but how likely would you deem it yourself that they have to develop their own ICE, TC and ERS's within 4 months, also given that they can't develop their chassis in the meanwhile because they need to have sense of the footprint of both the PU and cooling solutions.

If what TJ13 has reported is accurate, RBR and Renault will be striking a deal over the IP of the Renault PU. With RBR diverging from the Renault design by going with Ilmor's work over the last 12 months or so on the combustion concepts, so they won't be starting from a blank sheet of paper. The MGU-H and MGU-K, battery store and control electronics probably won't be too much of a problem. It's the turbo unit and compressor that would make things very tight for 2016. Cooling will be an issue but then it would be exactly the same issue if they switched to a Mercedes, Ferrari or Honda PU.
I don't believe this is the route the team will have wanted to take, but with VW out of the picture it seems they have little choice if they want to stay in the sport. I suspect if this is true, RBR were planning in terms of 2017/18 but events have over taken them.

Nothing is impossible of course. And yes I'm saying with quite a bit of synical taste.

I'm taking it with a pinch of salt. But this is the kind of thing Red Bull's owner would do, gets nowhere with the manufacturers so decides to show that he can do it better and dominate. It's that or walking away with his tail tucked behind his legs.

[lio007]

In an other forum a RBR-employee posts since mid October.
Asked about ERS development and Building 9 he replied:
"I cant comment, I can only tell you, I cant comment"

So it could be, or could not be...but we will know sooner than later.