Formula One's Engine Crisis

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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giantfan10 wrote:
Hamilton era: restricted development... no real way to combat the obvious advantage after first test session.
add to that mercedes blocking any relaxing of the restrictive engine rules to preserve their built in advantage.

MAJOR difference.....they may have both been driving off into the distance in their eras but how they got their is majorly different.
i have a lot more respect for the ferrari and red bull dominant years because their dominance came from constant innovation and being flat out better than the competition . maybe Mercedes would have won 2 championships even with open development,the fact that their championships have been aided by the current rules cheapens it for me
Well if restricted development is your criteria, push it back another 4/5 years to the frozen engines.
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giantfan10
giantfan10
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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FoxHound wrote:
giantfan10 wrote:
Hamilton era: restricted development... no real way to combat the obvious advantage after first test session.
add to that mercedes blocking any relaxing of the restrictive engine rules to preserve their built in advantage.

MAJOR difference.....they may have both been driving off into the distance in their eras but how they got their is majorly different.
i have a lot more respect for the ferrari and red bull dominant years because their dominance came from constant innovation and being flat out better than the competition . maybe Mercedes would have won 2 championships even with open development,the fact that their championships have been aided by the current rules cheapens it for me
Well if restricted development is your criteria, push it back another 4/5 years to the frozen engines.
i want nothing frozen.... would love to be back to the rules during schueys domination....test whatever you want whenever you want and to hell with budget caps... the end result would be mercedes ferrari mclaren and red bull in a development war.... i could care less how much billion dollar teams spend.... not my problem i have my own bills lol. there will still be haves and have nots just like it is now with all the cost saving.
those frozen engines were developed for several years before they became frozen not after the first test session in their first year

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FoxHound
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Those frozen engines were equalised for all intents and purposes. You want domination, but just not current domination. You want boring season after season if it means development.
Pray tell, how the current engine formula does not allow for development?
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bhall II
bhall II
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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FoxHound wrote:Pray tell, how the current engine formula does not allow for development?
A system isn't equitable (or sensible) if it's not permissible, through development, to rectify all mistakes and/or exploit all advantages as quickly as time permits. Just because the current system is arguably a step in the right direction doesn't mean it's right overall.

What we have now is a bit of a lottery that discourages ambition - the hallmark of Formula 1 - by mercilessly penalizing mistakes. It's a deliberate construct of the rules, because draconian restrictions were incorrectly judged to be an appropriate avenue for reducing costs.

Generally speaking, I don't agree with the notion that the sport is in crisis because any particular team/manufacturer is in trouble. That much was guaranteed the very moment these rules were implemented, because it's simply impossible for everyone to be a winner, and thus content with a relatively static competitive environment.

If anything, it's more like a birth defect.

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djos
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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FoxHound wrote:Those frozen engines were equalised for all intents and purposes. You want domination, but just not current domination. You want boring season after season if it means development.
Pray tell, how the current engine formula does not allow for development?
Had year 1 not had completely frozen development and a crazy low PU allowance with extreme penalties for swapping PU's, we wouldn't have an engine crisis act all imo.
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dans79
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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djos wrote: Had year 1 not had completely frozen development and a crazy low PU allowance with extreme penalties for swapping PU's, we wouldn't have an engine crisis act all imo.
When they wrote the rules, I don't think the envisioned all the manufactures but one, to have done such a horrible job.
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Xwang
Xwang
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Joined: 02 Dec 2012, 11:12

Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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I wonder if the rules which require an engine to last 4 or 5 gp and the gearbox to do pretty the same have really reduced the costs.
In the 90s an engine lasted only a gp an the same was for the gearbox and team budgets were a lot smaller.
The same applies IMHO to the ban of tests and to limitation to CFD and wind tunnel tests.

graham.reeds
graham.reeds
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Getting more manufacturers in is not a good idea. There can be only one winner everyone else is a loser and no car manufacturer wants to be second.

Remember when BMW, Toyota and Honda pulled out? They spent billions to run in the midfield. Rising costs to compete and then the financial crisis caused them to quit and had serious effect on F1. BMW and Honda were saved but Toyota pulled out completely. Whose to say if VW joined F1 and ran in the midfield for 5 years won't just pull out?

The engine spec was designed to make it easier of customer teams to switch between suppliers but due to different packaging costs (heat, etc.,) it never worked out like that.

Personally they should've just allowed differing engine configurations like in WEC and then we wouldn't of been in this situation.

However to change now is tantamount to admitting failure and to do that will make R/M/F/H question why the spent billions developing a non-optimal engine. Which is why I can't see the logic in even raising the 2.2l engine config.

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mclaren111
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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I am a huge fan of the new engines !!

Lack of noise is my only concern (hopefully sorted with new wastegate pipes).

Also, change gearbox back to 6 speed and and all is well again.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Yes i also like these engines, all about efficiency. But to make things better:

- Pull the balance a little more back to aero, so a weak motor, doesn't influence a good car constructor as much, as it does now.
- Allow more development, they will find ways to catch Mercedes. Tokens aren't saving anybody any money now.
- Less tyre saving, please.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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The "crisis" appears to be boil down to "change the rules just enough to let my favoured team win" in many minds it seems...
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giantfan10
giantfan10
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Just_a_fan wrote:The "crisis" appears to be boil down to "change the rules just enough to let my favoured team win" in many minds it seems...
i disagree... the crisis boils down to open up development and let the best man win whoever that is.
i'm a ferrari fan and thats no secret... when red bull was dominating i was ok with it because nothing was stopping Ferrari from improving the EBD design or at least trying to.... they and every other team failed to do so and red bull won the championship for 4 years in a row ..Kudos to red bull.
i'm a racing fan before a ferrari fan and this bullbleep we are watching isnt racing.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Phil wrote:for 2016, we're assuming 4 factory-teams and 6 teams in a customer-role. Still a minority.
In F1 there has always been some teams spending more money than the average F1 team, so they were the only real contenders for the title. F1 has never been a spec series where anyone can compete for wins. You can´t seriously expect a majority fighting for victories, those with real chances for victory have always been a minority, and will always be
Phil wrote:If you're a team like Williams, part of F1 since over 40 years, and suddenly, perhaps through sponsorship and/or better engineers, gain the means to drastically improve the car to the point they become a threat, Mercedes will no longer have a reason to supply them with competitive engines anymore.
At that point, if they really want to be title contenders, they´ll have to look for solutions, first of all investing a lot more money than currently.

But if main problem of F1 is X team investing 117M total can´t compete with A and B teams investing 400M plus R&D, then there´s no problem
Phil wrote:What will happen? These 6-7 teams, still a majority by todays standards, will be further forced outside the sport.
I disagree about this catastrophical point of view

In F1 there have always been midfielders unable to compete for victory, and even smaller teams unable to compete with midfielders. This is not new in F1, and the sport has survived 65 seasons
Phil wrote: OR - if the sport finds a way to make these engines less of a factor at the expense of these factory-teams (that are currently a minority), but making the sport more relevant to the majority of its participants and bring the field closer together like we did during the engine-freeze period
Closer, but not enough to be real contenders anycase, so I don´t see any mayor difference

How many teams won a race in that period? A minority too, not even a complete engine freeze solved that

But in that case it was manufacturers those being forced outside the sport becasue they couldn´t do their job. So that period in reality didn´t solve the parity problem, and created an added problem of manufacturers pissed off.
Phil wrote:The simple solution would be to find a middle ground that works for both engine manufacturers and the remaining teams; allow engine development but protect the customer teams by forcing those engine manufacturers to parity (no A-B spec engines) and a maximum price threshold for these engines. Assuming a factory-team still has a non-crucial advantage should be enough for them to prevail over their own customer by creating a better or at least equal car to them. It's also key that the engines get closer to each other as a result of diminishing returns and locked down regulations.
I was against the maximum price threshold for the PU, but I´m slowly changing my mind. At first I though nobody should say to any company what´s the price of their products, but now I agree if manufacturers want to spend a billion in R&D it must be their own investment and can´t expect their customer teams will pay that investment. This is racing, if you want to invest a lot of money do it, but don´t expect anyone paying that for you, specially when they will never enjoy the best spec of that product so they don´t take advantage of that R&D

But you can´t put a max price, and also force them to supply A-spec PUs, IMHO A-spec and B-spec PUs are necessary. Forcing manufacturers to supply A-spec PUs with a maximum price for each unit would be too much. In that case it would be a lot better to be a customer team than a factory team, no R&D, no big investments, and you get the best posible spec PU at a cheap price?

It wouldn´t be fair for manufacturers

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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Well it should br possible to limit the price and allow it te be season opening spec engines. Only the works team gets newer specs, during the season. That way production facility can start building engines on their own pace, reducing costs. I can imagen, building a latest spec engine and rushing it in the back of a car asap, is more costly.

Oh and still, during 2000-2005 i can remember Williams and McLaren fighting the title contender. Do we see Vettel or Riciardo banging wheels with Hamilton? Just Rosbeg, if Lewis has an off day. But most of the times he already skided into the runout area, when Lewis appears in the rear view mirrors.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Formula One's Engine Crisis

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NL_Fer wrote:Well it should br possible to limit the price and allow it te be season opening spec engines. Only the works team gets newer specs, during the season. That way production facility can start building engines on their own pace, reducing costs. I can imagen, building a latest spec engine and rushing it in the back of a car asap, is more costly.

Oh and still, during 2000-2005 i can remember Williams and McLaren fighting the title contender. Do we see Vettel or Riciardo banging wheels with Hamilton? Just Rosbeg, if Lewis has an off day. But most of the times he already skided into the runout area, when Lewis appears in the rear view mirrors.
But in those years Williams were the BMW works team and Mclaren the Mercedes works team.
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