Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[SKI2]

... but Red Bull could do it 1 if they attract the necessary people and knowhow. Illien/Ilmor would not suffice I think given their emphasis on the ICE, but they could attract some employees or even ex employees from the competition. If the necessary know how is there, then they could at least have something to put in the car....

Perhaps Illien knows more about their overall R&D and its application at Mercedes F1 over the past few years than we really understand. Perhaps he was actually involved in some of R&D. Doesn't Daimler have an ownership investment in Ilmor? As Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd?

Perhaps that's why RedBull hired Illien in the first place?

RB have probably have had their own PU in mind for a number of years. If not for performance reasons, then at least to protect themselves from becoming merely another non-works team when Renault decided to jump back in.

Perhaps Renault had a contractual obligation to notify RB (their "works team") when or if they returned to F1 as a works team, thus relegating RB to a PU supplied team. Perhaps Renault has been "saving" their development budget for the Renault works team. And that is what started the war of words.

Conjecture, of course.

[Skippon]

There is no relationship between illmor and HPP in last 10 years. HPP is wholly owned Daimler, they had no stake in Illmor. Yes there are a few old timers in HPP who have friends at Ilmor but thats all. I believe there was a system engineer who jumped ship back to Ilmor in 2013 but he would have been unaware of 2014 PU innovations

[R_Redding]

Perhaps Illien knows more about their overall R&D and its application at Mercedes F1 over the past few years than we really understand. Perhaps he was actually involved in some of R&D.

The current Ilmor factory is more related to an old Honda project rather than anything Mercedes. It,the Ilmor factory is owned by Illien and Roger Penske mainly for Indycar work.

It is however very close to the Merc engine plant in Brixworth.


Its also very close to Milton Keynes (10-15 mile as the crow flies, 60-70 by roundabout and getting lost excursions ).

The proximity of Ilmor to Red Bull always made TJ13 claims suspect.
Suspect...... But Joe Saward recently replied to a blog entry inferring that he didn't think RB will pull out as they have recently spent a small fortune on a full engine/chassis dyno (for ERS and systems development one would assume).
As a Dyno (from AVL etc)would take sometime to build and install,it may have been ordered when RB thought they had secured Merc engines.

Having an engine/chassis ERS development dyno will need talent , but RB are close enough to lots of companies (GKN , GKN Williams, Zytek , McLaren Electronics etc, and the science/business parks of Cambridge/ Oxford) from whom the talent can be poached,assuming they need extra employees.

Rob

[FoxHound]

The major issue with Ilmor today is one of funding, anything with Mario Illien involved will make most people sit up and take notice.
But he doesn't have the cash to compete outright in the same way as the manufacturers.

Red Bull involvement changes that, but it's to which degree they decide to invest.

Also Illien has gone on record as to say he is interested in the alternative engine. But, I can't help feel that a man of his calibre and nous, would look at alternatives if he wasn't being led to do so by parties standing to benefit from alternative engines.

[FoxHound]

@R.Redding

The picture I'm getting is that Red Bull have invested in in-house development tools that would help them for their own means.
No independent team requires an AVL rig unless they have express intentions of testing and developing an engine.

A cheap way of doing so is "outsourcing" development to a third party ie. Ilmor, and utilising their expertise in the same way they do with Magnetti Marelli and their ERS. As far as I'm in formed Red Bull get off the shelf Marelli systems and then develop it further in house. The process could well be mirrored with a base Renault engine that is developed jointly by both Ilmor and Red Bull.

[SKI2]

Thanks, Skippon. Regarding relationships and ownership: IP, IP HIstory, and Engineering Culture within design organizations is an interesting subject. Brawn, Newey, and others could shed some light on that subject.

Saward has an interesting point. One that supports my view / guess - obviously there is a huge benefit to investing in such a testing rig. There is a timeline for its installation and calibration to guide a groundbreaking. And while F1 teams use these rigs for many reasons other than just PU integration; it is a very interesting co-incidence. Especially when viewed against the dawn of the PR war between RB and Viry and the possibility of contract derived disclosures.

Options are often year to year in F1.

After all, wouldn't 4 championships in a row provide the necessary confidence for RB to make that leap? Their input into the Renault PU with some hardware and software solutions were proven in competition. They know the good, bad, and indifferent to the Renault PU. The ICE and its integration is already a known engineering value - that is valuable in racing.

In any event, seems likely RB made an PU decision somewhere between 12 and 18 months ago. That's my guess, anyway.

And thanks Rob, for the graphically enhanced post. Maps always provide interesting connections, don't they.

[Skippon]

The thing is you just don't build a power unit and race it. What the three manufacturers do is repeatedly run one or more as long as it can; work out what failed; refine it and do it all again until its suitably reliable as well as performing.
Allied to that is the subject of damage metrics. The ICE is always trying to tear itself apart and you can run more aggressive modes with more power but the life of the PU is degraded. All this is worked out on the dyno. So net result is to be competitive you need several dyno's, which Viry, Brixworth have but RB can't possibly have.
They will have extra "dyno's" just for the fuelling system, ERS motors, pumps or whatever too!!! All these things must be integrated for the optimal solution.

To build this kind of infrastructure takes years regardless of money - it isn't happening at RB - it would be obvious.

[OneAlex]

It is however very close to the Merc engine plant in Brixworth.
http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac18 ... e5jdmx.jpg

You can almost picture the Ilmor employees walking down the road with a ladder in their lunch break to have a quick peek through the Merc factory windows.

Just imagine the amount of industrial secrets that could be spilled at the estate's burger van.

[FoxHound]

The thing is you just don't build a power unit and race it. What the three manufacturers do is repeatedly run one or more as long as it can; work out what failed; refine it and do it all again until its suitably reliable as well as performing.
Allied to that is the subject of damage metrics. The ICE is always trying to tear itself apart and you can run more aggressive modes with more power but the life of the PU is degraded. All this is worked out on the dyno. So net result is to be competitive you need several dyno's, which Viry, Brixworth have but RB can't possibly have.
They will have extra "dyno's" just for the fuelling system, ERS motors, pumps or whatever too!!! All these things must be integrated for the optimal solution.

To build this kind of infrastructure takes years regardless of money - it isn't happening at RB - it would be obvious.

Yet it's entirely plausible for Illien to propose an entirely new cylinder chamber to be adopted this year as an upgrade for the Renault V6?
http://www.f1connection.co.uk/renault-r ... prototype/

If Illien can propose it, he can build it. Who pay him? Red Bull.

So either Illien is talking out his anus, or Red Bull/Ilmor have the ability to upgrade an existing Renault V6 engine.
There should be no more debate on this.

[turbof1]

The thing is you just don't build a power unit and race it. What the three manufacturers do is repeatedly run one or more as long as it can; work out what failed; refine it and do it all again until its suitably reliable as well as performing.
Allied to that is the subject of damage metrics. The ICE is always trying to tear itself apart and you can run more aggressive modes with more power but the life of the PU is degraded. All this is worked out on the dyno. So net result is to be competitive you need several dyno's, which Viry, Brixworth have but RB can't possibly have.
They will have extra "dyno's" just for the fuelling system, ERS motors, pumps or whatever too!!! All these things must be integrated for the optimal solution.

To build this kind of infrastructure takes years regardless of money - it isn't happening at RB - it would be obvious.

Very correct. Let's remind ourselves that big manufacturers like Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari took 4 years to develop the tech. Assuming RBR does not get the Renault IP of the PU, they'll have to go through the same process. Probably speed up due people with the necessary knowhow being around, but not as quickly as next year.

It's also one thing to built a cylinder head, and quite another to built a full ICE. It's something, not everything.

[FoxHound]

Assuming RBR does not get the Renault IP of the PU, they'll have to go through the same process. Probably speed up due people with the necessary knowhow being around, but not as quickly as next year.

It's also one thing to built a cylinder head, and quite another to built a full ICE. It's something, not everything.

I'm lost as to why you think Red Bull would want or need to build an ICE from scratch. No story I've read says they do, or can.

I'm also trying to grasp why you think Illien, funded by Red Bull, cannot develop a Renault derived engine for Red Bull.
He already had a cylinder development proposed to Renault, again, paid for by Red Bull. He did this all within 12 months, possibly even sooner.

Your denial of this, is to deny that Illien worked on that "Renault" development. So is Illien a liar, or do Red Bull have the means to develop a Renault engine via Illien? You cannot have both....

[turbof1]

I'm also trying to grasp why you think Illien, funded by Red Bull, cannot develop a Renault derived engine for Red Bull.

You haven't read what I said:

Assuming RBR does not get the Renault IP of the PU, they'll have to go through the same process. Probably speed up due people with the necessary knowhow being around, but not as quickly as next year.

Perhaps if a PU was made out of lego, it would be possible .

[NL_Fer]

I won't be supprised if the Renault again is on a tight f1 budget. They would welcome the money Redbull will pay for just the block, crank. rods etc.. Design the pistons, heads, injectors and turbo themself.

[FoxHound]

Perhaps if a PU was made out of lego, it would be possible .

What's to say that Illmor have not had this development tested on a bench?

I mean let's look at the logistics of developing a new cylinder for the Renault PU, which we know from independent sources, Red Bull and Illien himself.
First you'd need money.
Then you'd need complete intimate details of the engine, I'd say probably even the engine itself.
Then you gotta see what the engine does, and what the development adds.
An AVL rig comes in handy for that....
Then you'd need to verify whether the development is worthwhile in view of the token system.

After that, you'd put forward your proposals to your paymasters, who then take that proposal to Renault.

Alternatively, do you think Mario dreamt up his design independently of the Renault V6?

[dans79]

What's to say that Illmor have not had this development tested on a bench?

A conceptual design, is not the same as having a built, tested, and verified design.

Even if they had a rig, they would still need at least one good engine to test cylinder head designs with. For real testing, you probably need tens of engines. RBR most likely doesn't have engine blue prints because they are a customer, and that's not the type of info a customer gets, so they can't build one from scratch. You can't break FIA seals just because you want to test something, so any motors that have seen track time is out. A blown or warn out motor isn't any help, not to mention I was always under the assumption the manufactures reclaimed the motors once they where used up. Thus RBR would have to be given a new working motor to test with, and based on the state of their relationship with Renault I can't see that happening either.