Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[basti313]

I'm also trying to grasp why you think Illien, funded by Red Bull, cannot develop a Renault derived engine for Red Bull.
He already had a cylinder development proposed to Renault, again, paid for by Red Bull. He did this all within 12 months, possibly even sooner.

Well, having one cylinder developed is how much of a F1 engine design? 10%, 20%? And I do not think that Renault is mainly struggling on the combustion chamber: This year showed that they have reliability problems with the block, others have used tokens for improving how to guide the air or the exhaust....these are things Renault still has to solve and not just needs to imply Illien solutions.

Your denial of this, is to deny that Illien worked on that "Renault" development. So is Illien a liar, or do Red Bull have the means to develop a Renault engine via Illien? You cannot have both....

??? Mateschitz clearly said, he does not want to develop an engine. And Renault said they do not follow Illien's solutions.
So where is your point?

[FoxHound]

??? Mateschitz clearly said, he does not want to develop an engine. And Renault said they do not follow Illien's solutions.
So where is your point?

Can you quote Mateschitz, just for the record?

Renault has decided against adopting a prototype design produced by engine guru Mario Illien

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... pe-option/

Who paid Illien to come up with the concept Basti????
Couldn't be Mateschitz's Red Bull now, could it?

A conceptual design, is not the same as having a built, tested, and verified design.

No problem there either, because back in August, Renault themselves had their own untested and unproven development design.
Illien's concept was even taken to Viry for testing, no doubt for back-to-back analysis on what Renault have planned themselves. It just so happens to have been built too.

Part of that push to find more power has involved Renault evaluating on the dyno a single-cylinder prototype provided by Illien's Ilmor company.

[dans79]

??? Mateschitz clearly said, he does not want to develop an engine. And Renault said they do not follow Illien's solutions.
So where is your point?

Can you quote Mateschitz, just for the record?

Renault has decided against adopting a prototype design produced by engine guru Mario Illien

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... pe-option/

Who paid Illien to come up with the concept Basti????
Couldn't be Mateschitz's Red Bull now, could it?

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34139.html

Dietrich Mateschitz declared that it makes little sense to build a complete drive unit on its own it. It would take far too long in the complexity of the technology, until you reach a level of Mercedes or Ferrari would.

It's far more likely Mateschitz payed Illien a small sum of money to do some research and develop a prototype (one cylinder mind you), in the hope that he could convince Renault to adopt it, than it is what some have been claiming is going to happen.

[FoxHound]

Dan

Red Bull contracted Ilmor to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34404641

Meanwhile, Red Bull had funded its own engine development programme with the British Ilmor company.

Bizarrely, I've stumbled across a Micheal Schmidt article from March of this year...

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/03/26/ ... ools-joke/

Also arranged by Red Bull is to run the Ilmor upgrades at the state-of-the-art facilities at AVL, an Austrian specialist powertrain company.

And Michael Schmidt, the highly-respected correspondent for Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport, claims: “Red Bull has ordered its own ‘VTT’ facility’.” He said the only other companies with access to a ‘virtual test track’ – allowing full car testing under a roof – are Mercedes and Honda. Schmidt added: “When you ask what a team needs with this most extreme form of a dynamometer, there is really only one answer — to become an engine manufacturer.”

The same Schmidt who belittled TJ13.... :-"

[bhall II]

The problem with trying to rifle through the quotes and purported actions of people who are more likely than others to be psychopaths is that you'll inevitably run into contradictions...

Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz says there is no chance the team will continue with Renault power units as their Speedweek publication launched a scathing attack on all of F1's engine providers.

Red Bull and Renault are poised to continue their Formula 1 partnership into 2016, providing the former's owner Dietrich Mateschitz gives the green light, Autosport understands.

"The problem is, we can't control it," the Austrian billionaire said, ruling out the option of Red Bull starting to build its own engine.

"We are not a car manufacturer who could justify the investment," he said. "So we rely on Renault to close the gap to Ferrari and, above all, Mercedes."

We are not an engine manufacturer. Of course we could build our own engine one day, if there is no reasonable alternative. But, that contradicts [common sense].

Red Bull is edging closer to a decision on whether it will put its own road car into production.

Speaking to Autocar at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, Horner said the project "is still being talked about," and "hasn't been ruled out for the future."

There's no such thing is as common sense in the world of Formula 1.

[dans79]

Dan

Red Bull contracted Ilmor to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34404641

Meanwhile, Red Bull had funded its own engine development programme with the British Ilmor company.

Jesus man, your basing your entire argument on that, it's not even a quote or indirect quote. Not to mention it says development, not production. Also several other sources reported what Ilmor developed was a one cylinder prototype...........

[turbof1]

Dan

Red Bull contracted Ilmor to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34404641

Meanwhile, Red Bull had funded its own engine development programme with the British Ilmor company.

That does not contradict this:

It's far more likely Mateschitz payed Illien a small sum of money to do some research and develop a prototype (one cylinder mind you), in the hope that he could convince Renault to adopt it, than it is what some have been claiming is going to happen.

An "engine development programme" can be anything between developing the full PU to just the bolts of the supports. I've seen these excagerations before with specific jargon. e.g. Sanitary Operational Manager, a toilet cleaner.

It's a cylinder that got developed. Maybe even never produced, but simulated. It's a very long step away from an ICE, left alone with a TC, left alone in combination with ERS systems. Ilmor got contracted to do that. It's when a government orders a research project to seek advice. Only that Red Bull is not charge, and Renault is. They put the advice aside.

Again, this is not lego where you can easily take one part and built it onto something else so that you still get a coherent piece.

There's no such thing is as common sense in the world of Formula 1.

It depends on Dietrich's outlook if he still is living in the world of F1. The company he owns and has worked so hard for is much bigger then a measily autosport project. My general impression is that he is not charmed anymore by F1, perhaps even disillusioned. Common sense of doing healthy entrepreneurship might drag him out of it. Or might not; that's down to psychology.

I'll be very happy when we actually can get official confirmation on anything definitive. It would be no surprise either if the ultimatum from Renault would end cold too.

[FoxHound]

Jesus man, your basing your entire argument on that, it's not even a quote or indirect quote. Not to mention it says development, not production. Also several other sources reported what Ilmor developed was a one cylinder prototype...........

I got no qualms with it being a 1 cylinder. We do not know the exact issues revolving around the Renault ICE for Illien to propose this solution. But not an hour ago you mentioned that this 1 cylinder engine was a conceptual design.
4 months ago that 1 cylinder "conceptual design" was sat at Viry with Frenchman poking at it. Real time.
Are you suggesting that 1 cylinder prototype had no relevance to the overall V6?
And are you suggesting that in those 4 months, Red Bull may not have commisioned Ilmor to proceed with further development work on their "own" Renault V6?

[dans79]

Are you suggesting that 1 cylinder prototype had no relevance to the overall V6?

I wouldn't say zero relevance, but it's not much. Once cylinder doesn't tell you anything about the forces & heat that will be generated by multiple cylinders, or any of the other real world constraints related to a multi cylinder engine. Designing something like this is a multi step process.

1) theory
2) concept
3) proof of concept
4) N number of prototypes
5) test beds
6) N rounds of re-work
7) finished product
updates to deal with issues

And are you suggesting that in those 4 months, Red Bull may not have commisioned Ilmor to proceed with further development work on their "own" Renault V6?

No one knows that for sure, but as I and other posted above Mateschitz doesn't think it's feasible.

[basti313]

And are you suggesting that in those 4 months, Red Bull may not have commisioned Ilmor to proceed with further development work on their "own" Renault V6?

Why should they? They are not building their own Ilmor engine, I think this is rather fact with all the quotes from Mateschitz and Illien we already saw in this thread. If they would go their own way since years there would be no need to hide it if they would roll it out next year.
Building a Renault engine with RedBull Mods...just not possible by the rules. That would completely contradict the rules as we could see an AMG engine next year, a FIAT in two years...whatever Renault builds must be well in the range of the usable tokens.

Overall I would say this is an ongoing media nonsense and especially Schmidt has posted all types of nonsense, starting from claiming in mid 2014 that AVL is building a new engine for RedBull.
By the way, RedBull started using the VTT of AVL not to build an engine. They were improving the integration and cooling on it already in 2014. Buying one of these making them an engine manufacturer in 2015 is just, again, plain nonsense.

[bhall II]

There's no such thing is as common sense in the world of Formula 1.

It depends on Dietrich's outlook if he still is living in the world of F1. The company he owns and has worked so hard for is much bigger then a measily autosport project. My general impression is that he is not charmed anymore by F1, perhaps even disillusioned. Common sense of doing healthy entrepreneurship might drag him out of it. Or might not; that's down to psychology.

I'll be very happy when we actually can get official confirmation on anything definitive. It would be no surprise either if the ultimatum from Renault would end cold too.

None of us have access to the sort of high-powered crystal ball needed for accurate prognostication. All we can do is look at possibilities, and everyone involved in this saga has the resources to do whatever they damn well please, even if certain possibilities seem unlikely. In fact, that's probably why this process is taking so long to resolve: everyone knows that what's possible isn't necessarily what's advisable, but no one is letting that stop them from using the realm of all possibility as the basis for negotiation.

Yes, Red Bull can design and manufacturer its own power unit. Yes, Renault can launch a full-blooded works effort. Neither side truly needs the other. But, it's unlikely either side would enjoy the same level of success on their own as they would in a less-dysfunctional joint effort.

I think what's needed is for everyone involved, particularly on Red Bull's side of the garage, to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that the best way forward is to keep trudging along. Stopping now to do anything else will just allow rivals to get that much further ahead. It's not ideal, but that ship sailed roughly five years ago.

[NL_Fer]

That some people stil, believe Redbull and Renault should still cooperate and that Redbull is the evil here. Remeber that over the winter Ferrari, jumped past Renault and is now gaining on Mercedes, who worked 4 years on this engine.

Honda made huge gains during this season. From an engine 250bhp down and blowing after 10 laps, to on par ice power with Renault, reliable and drivable.

Renault is still in the same spot, as when they debuted the v6 in Australia 2014.

En we can't even see, what Redbull have seen inside the walls of Viry Chatillon.

Also, i cannot believe that building the actual block is a problem for any of the 4 . It's a 12000rpm engine capable of 700bhp, mostly spec defined by the fia, no exotic materials. Solid minimum weight, they have the knowledge for that.

The main difference is they changed the goal, from burning as much fuel, with a acceptable efficiency, to extracting as much energy from a given amount of fuel. So combustion is more important than in the past and a single cilinder prototype is very relevant.

It is not a coincidance, that road car engines are changing towards same cilinder designs. BMW already explained, the next generation engines will be a 1.5l i3, 2.0l i4 and a 3.0l i6, all the same cilinder design. Others are focussing an a 1.0 i3 and 1.4 i4 etc gasoline combustion is mayor these days and thats why this engine formula is so road relevant.

[bhall II]

That some people stil, believe Redbull and Renault should still cooperate and that Redbull is the evil here. Remeber that over the winter Ferrari, jumped past Renault and is now gaining on Mercedes, who worked 4 years on this engine.

Honda made huge gains during this season. From an engine 250bhp down and blowing after 10 laps, to on par ice power with Renault, reliable and drivable.

What's the alternative? Mercedes, Ferrari, and McHonda have made it clear that Red Bull cannot count on them for frontline support. It doesn't make sense to entertain performance possibilities that don't exist, yanno?

"...you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want..." ~ Donald Rumsfeld (I can't believe I just used that.)

Also, I think the direct comparison between Renault and Honda is a bit unfair, because they've employed very different development strategies. Honda has upgraded its PU all season, while Renault's first update of the year is scheduled for use at the season's penultimate race. One path resulted in 272 points and all the prize money that total represents, and the other path decidedly has not.

None of this should be taken to excuse Renault's abominable performance. That's been as clear as day for everyone to see. But, what part of Red Bull's ceaseless mudslinging made things better? And is it possible for any startup operation to exceed it in the near future?

[Phil]

Yes, Red Bull can design and manufacturer its own power unit. Yes, Renault can launch a full-blooded works effort. Neither side truly needs the other. But, it's unlikely either side would enjoy the same level of success on their own as they would in a less-dysfunctional joint effort.

I've seen you bring this point up a few times already. While this certainly holds true for 2016 given that the alternative seems to be zero engines, there is one major flaw in it regardless: Renault is entering back as a fully fletched factory-team with the purchase of the Enstone team. I'd be very keen to hear why Renault would want to supply RedBull with the same engines and the same level of dedication as their own team, if this is the basis for Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren vetoing Honda from doing the same.

The goal of being "successful together" ended the moment Renault decided to quit as an independent supplier and enter as its own factory team, after which even the teams they supply become competitors. Yes, that includes RedBull too. That's the whole point of the exercise. So while RedBull may end up on the grid with Renault engines next year, it will only be because it's effectively their only option available, not because Renault are keen to return to their combined success with RedBull. For Renault, it will be a means to gain more data and distribute the costs of the engines. Nothing more, nothing less.

[bhall II]

Well, if we're going to go by that logic, the goal of Red Bull and Renault ever being successful together (again) began to crumble the moment Red Bull let it be known to anyone who would listen - and even to those who'd rather not - that the team wanted anything other than a Renault PU in the back of its cars. To the extent possible, the team did everything it could to make that a reality, including severing its side of the deal with Renault.

We have cancelled the contract [with Renault].

It's disingenuous to fault one side for making contingency plans in the face of fierce saber rattling by the other. In the end, how was Renault supposed to know that Red Bull has the same skill for procuring a PU as Viry-Châtillon has for making them?

But, yes, Renault will also see its fortunes tumble as a result of buying Lotus. As scrappy as they are in Enstone, they're not quite as capable as those in Milton Keynes.