Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FW17]

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

[Phil]

You're right, criticizing your supplier and partner is not the best way to strengthen a partnership. I'm a bit unsure though what came first though - them criticizing or Renault scouting around for a team to buy; According to James Allen in an article dating back to March 7th (before the start of the season), it seems Renault was already contemplating various options as far back as even 2014:

Since the end of last year, Renault has been evaluating its options in F1 with three possibilities: stay as they are as a supplier, withdraw from F1 or take over a team and run as Renault again.

A board meeting took place in December and further meetings are planned as they move towards a decision. In the meantime it is known that they are evaluating which team would be suitable for a takeover.

At that point, I'm assuming, RedBull still had high hopes of a better 2015 season after Abiteboul raised high hopes back in late January on engine progress:

Renault says it has made “fundamental changes” to its power unit in a bid to close the gap on Mercedes in 2015, with the manufacturer’s Managing Director Cyril Abiteboul saying “we believe we have made a very big step in performance and will be more reliable”.

“We knew what we had to do over the winter and we know what we have achieved,” said Abiteboul. “We do not know where the others will be: we may not have erased all the gaps, but we are confident that we have gone a long way to making up the deficit of last season. Our objective is to close the gap as much as possible and give Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso a more competitive car on most circuits, independently of their characteristics and sensitivities.”

History I guess showed us that it wasn't to be, which I think give a little context to the criticism that resulted coming off a horrendous Melbourne Grand Prix weekend, where they already lost an engine out of the 4 available.

It was after that, that Newey was quite vocal in his criticism and then peaked in the famous Malaysian press conference where one could cut the air with a paper, such was the tension between Horner and Abiteboul sitting next to him. You can actually still find the press conference on Youtube:

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6WRR-xWkEM
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6T4m5jXFiE
Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj24n2CgWMY

I'm not defending RedBulls criticism here. I'm not even attempting to justify it. This is merely to give some context on what we got to see out in the public domain and what was going on in the background dating back as far back as December 2014 where there was apparently a board meeting at Renault discussing perhaps their intention of taking over a team. No doubt their clash with RedBull played a role too, but I'd be careful to appoint the blame exclusively to one faction without the proper context, especially if that context may have added to the overall frustration levels.

Criticism is obviously a big deal, but lets not forget that criticism has also been some issue at McLaren and Honda. We're yet to see how next year will turn out and if that team will make progress or even added frustration will turn into more tension. A lot is at stake for most teams in F1.

[bhall II]

You're right, criticizing your supplier and partner is not the best way to strengthen a partnership. I'm a bit unsure though what came first though - them criticizing or Renault scouting around for a team to buy; According to James Allen in an article dating back to March 7th (before the start of the season), it seems Renault was already contemplating various options as far back as even 2014...

Christian Horner says Red Bull has engine options for 2016 having been unhappy with the current performance of Renault.

Following a disappointing Austrian Grand Prix, Horner was scathing in his criticism of Renault as Daniel Ricciardo finished eighth and Sebastian Vettel retired following reliability issues. While Horner wants to see Renault recover, he admits Red Bull already knows it will not be short of choice when its current deal expires at the end of next season.

"The thing about a team like Red Bull is we always have options, and I'm not going to disclose what they are here,” Horner said. "We want to run at the front, we want to be competitive, and in order to be competitive we have to have a sensible power unit."

And just for fun...

“Of course it’s not an ideal situation,” Horner said. “I’m working hard to try and find a solution, and hopefully there will be a solution in the coming weeks but it’s quite simple. If we don’t get an engine, we can’t push the car.

When asked if we could safely assume it would not be provided by Volkswagen, Horner wryly said: “That seemed to go up in smoke.”

It had to be a dour day at the Horner home after news of the Volkswagen scandal broke.

[Phil]

My mistake; I should have clarified; When I was talking about criticism, I was referring to the kind that subsequently lead to the complete breakdown of that partnership where both parties deemed that working together for another year would be out of the question. Back in 2014, I don't think it was beyond repair. Even RedBull knew that the situation is what it is with no means to alter the engine. What also helped was that Ferrari was struggling too, so while the situation was not good, it was not catastrophic.

That of course changed with the start to 2015 when Australia showed what jump Ferrari made and the problems Renault still faced in the season opener, losing an engine on the very first weekend. This lead to more frustration that naturally resulted in more criticism and tension until the subsequent breakdown between Renault and RedBull.

I think it's important to understand that after 4 years of dominance, RedBull suddenly saw itself confronted with having to explain their lack of performance in 2014. It was strikingly obvious to see by anyone that these new regulations, these new engines, must have been the cause for such a major shift in performance between teams. Is it criticism then if a team confronted by questions as to why it was failing to be competitive to state the obvious?

I think what is more important than the mere stating of facts or explaining a situation is how each party decides to deal with it. If the trust in each others ability is strong, then they will have faith in the others ability to overcome the problems. That is, if that faith is still there. Looking at the Redbull-Renault situation; I get the feeling that that faith gradually decreased until it was practically non-existent in 2015. And it decreased for numerous reasons; On the most simple level - because the performance and reliability wasn't there while everyone else improved into 2015. On a more complex level; I assume there was also a breakdown in communication or perhaps there was a dispute in the belief where the problems were or how they needed to be solved. Or they simply grew tired of hearing the same old promises that things would improve? At some point, the ulterior motives of Renault to either leave or purchase its own team must have also played a role too in the ever growing frustration of both teams.

If go back to reading 2014 articles; I see a level of frustration from RedBull not only directed at Renault, but also the rules that were in place at the given time. Rules of course that everyone agreed to, but despite the best intentions of those rules, resulted in a bigger performance gap than most or anyone would have dared to anticipate.

[dans79]

The issues with Renault go back way further than just last year.

RBR tried to drop Renault for Mercedes in late 2009, but McLaren blocked them. In 2010 RBR was very vocal about the performance deficit to Ferrari & Mercedes, though nothing like 2014/2015. in 2012 multiple alternator issues lead to some tension between RBR & Renault. Last year was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[bdeitemeyer]

Apparently not all of the Update is Ready:
https://twitter.com/janci1612/status/664842091638480896

So if RBR is only getting the ICE and not the turbocharger (as it's supposedly not ready yet, despite this upgrade being available 2 races ago), does that lend any credence to the TJ13 rumor and perhaps Renault are keeping their "new" turbocharger for themselves as that's not an item that will be shared between the two companies next year?

[Manoah2u]

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

did RedBull thank Renault for their success?

i quite recall Renault being allowed to modify their v8 because it 'lacked' in some aspects compared the competition....

something i think is interesting though is that Renaults 'problems' begain with RedBull on alternators on their PU. iirc it was magneti marelli alternators. if im right, their ERS is magneti marelli. is the entire Renault problem due to magneti marelli?
surely can't be that simple right?

[NL_Fer]

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

did RedBull thank Renault for their success?

i quite recall Renault being allowed to modify their v8 because it 'lacked' in some aspects compared the competition....

something i think is interesting though is that Renaults 'problems' begain with RedBull on alternators on their PU. iirc it was magneti marelli alternators. if im right, their ERS is magneti marelli. is the entire Renault problem due to magneti marelli?
surely can't be that simple right?

Rumour was they overheated because of Newey tight design's cooling capabilities.

If the turbo story is through, is Renault basicly running the 2014 pu, with a new Ice? What is happening in Viry Chattilon?

[bhall II]

My mistake; I should have clarified; When I was talking about criticism, I was referring to the kind that subsequently lead to the complete breakdown of that partnership where both parties deemed that working together for another year would be out of the question...

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. From my perspective, it seems apparent that Red Bull had little intention of moving forward with Renault after the team somehow convinced Audi to enter the picture. Those rumors seriously picked up steam around May of 2014; Horner started mentioning his undisclosed future 2016 partner as early as July of that year; and Domenicali started in Ingolstadt that November.

In and of itself, I don't necessarily fault the underpinnings of the strategy. Given Renault's continued struggles to put together a cohesive update, regardless of whatever strain has been put on the working relationship, the idea behind the move seems as valid now as it was then.

(That doesn't mean I agree with it, mind you, and lord knows I've said too much on that subject already. But, I do understand the rationale.)

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

While it's obviously a bit more self-serving than a pure "thank you" tends to be, I gotta think the $30,000,000 Infiniti sponsorship expressed quite a bit of gratitude, no?



Those certainly aren't the faces of thankless slaves. (Although, Newey always looks like he's at least contemplating his next bowel movement.)

[Phil]

I really don't get the discussion about "having to thank anyone". This isn't a deal based on good-will, friendship or faith. It's a business deal - and therefore it's also a deal where there is a certain interest for both parties. I'm not sure the contract or any such contract stipulates to what degree a one party needs to promote the products of the other. And if it's stipulated; it's easily something that can be brought to attention and enforce it to the degree it's in the contract.

It's not Redbulls jobs to sell and promote Renault products as the WDC winning team (beyond wearing the logos and having that name in the teams title). On the other hand, it's neither Renaults job to promote Redbull. There have been more than enough Renault commercials where they were riding on the success of their main F1 teams winnings (namely Clios and Megans).

[Juzh]

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

did RedBull thank Renault for their success?

i quite recall Renault being allowed to modify their v8 because it 'lacked' in some aspects compared the competition....

something i think is interesting though is that Renaults 'problems' begain with RedBull on alternators on their PU. iirc it was magneti marelli alternators. if im right, their ERS is magneti marelli. is the entire Renault problem due to magneti marelli?
surely can't be that simple right?

Rumour was they overheated because of Newey tight design's cooling capabilities.

If the turbo story is through, is Renault basicly running the 2014 pu, with a new Ice? What is happening in Viry Chattilon?

"rumour" heh?
Grosjean's alternator also failed in valencia. It was also said cooling was not a problem in all previous years, and no definitive reason was actually found as to why alternators were failing all of a sudden. One can only suspect marelli manufacturing problems, because when RB switched to mclaren made alternators for 2013 all problems were gone.

[FW17]

Wonder why Renault never thanked Red Bull for the successes between 2010-2013?

did RedBull thank Renault for their success?

THE Consensus Here and Most of the English Press is that Red Bull forgot to tHank Renault. So it must be true.

I was just wondering if Renault did the same.

[ME4ME]

Red Bull trophy thieves sentenced to jail

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-b ... d-to-jail/

After pleading guilty during a previous trial at Guildford Crown Court, the quartet, aged between 24 and 41, have now been sentenced to between two and seven years in jail.

Wow 7 years.

[OneAlex]

Ricciardo on if the engine upgrade was worth it: "We needed the data".

Would be odd if they needed it just for the Abu Dhabi, so does that mean they are basing the un-badged Renault deal on the performance of this engine upgrade? Or will next year's engine actually be quite similar to the upgraded engine rather than a complete redesign?

[turbof1]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-b ... -decision/

So now Carlos Gosn also has to agree on the contract, or rather on the decision if Renault wants to stay in F1 or not. We still have not heard anything publicly if Matechitz agreed or disagreed.

The article also mentions an outside chance still on the Honda PU. Still depending on Ron Dennis.

One nasty quote from Abiteboul:

Renault's F1 managing director Cyril Abiteboul said: "What I think is fair to say is that Red Bull has found a solution. We will confirm to what extent that involves Renault, but the first thing we need to decide is our involvement in F1.

Didn't ecclestone said a month or so back that Red Bull back then found a solution? I think it would be correct to say they found a possible solution, which is not set in stone yet.

Still, it has a lot more chances then trying to persuade iron will Dennis.