Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[mikep99]

LMAO? Sounds like sour grapes to me. I loved the comment:

"There is a lot of Ferrari in his car"

by di Montezemelo

If there is so much Ferrari in his car why did Ferrari not push further to have them excluded and why did this whole thing take so long. Fact of the matter is that IF the Mclaren realy does have Ferrari designed parts inside of it, then there aren't that many of them as it took months to find them and prove their existnce.

(Not that that makes it any less bad that Mclaren have those parts in their car, if indeed it is true that they do)

So we are to believe that nothing, not even one little thing from the detailed document & 100’s of emails/text messages etc etc at any stage could be or was used.
F1 is measured in millimetres & milliseconds & is the pinnacle of engineering, the most insignificant thing could be 1 millionth of a second on the track, and a half decent organisation would have been able to use some of this data. If not directly, then even just to get new ideas or even fast tracking development & testing time.
Like the old saying goes – two heads are better than one. McLaren had two engineering teams working on there cars in effect.

Isn’t it funny that:
A Michelin shod Renault lead the way the last 2 year.
A Michelin shod McLaren was nowhere the last two years.
A Bridgestone shod Renault nowhere this year.
A Bridgestone shod McLaren leading this year.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?
Who has been proven to have both hardcopy & a constant flow of insider information about this data ?

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Hamilton gained points in even only one race because of this Ferrari /McLaren collaboration.
This alone makes the WDC tainted in some way?? As is the WCC, but this is not tainted because of something Ferrari did.

[Rob W]

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?

More to the point, this year's Bridgestone tires are completely new. It has been mentioned many times that Ferrari's set-up knowledge would have been negated within the first couple of races of the season.

Granted though, their tire gas use is something very interesting and probably worth knowing... but then again, other teams might have an event better 'gas' solution but not the aero package and engine to back it up.

Rob W

[Carlos]

Scuderia_Russ should know. He works in motorsport. For a well known team. He should know. On some thread, maybe this one he said." EVERY TEAM CHEATS". A team probably can't win without cheating some way. Put someone on a pedestal and they will fall off. Maybe that's why people put somebody on a pedestal, to wait for them to fall on their arse, makes them feel superior,demand total moral perfection. So they can point a finger. Well everybody has a little s**t under their finger nails. Smell yours next time you pull a fast one. Unless of course your Christ returned to this earth. These teams are made up of men. Not Gods. Accept it. Consider moving on.

It was in the Mclaren Losses Points thread: RS is a profesional and knows a lot more about what happens on the inside than most of us. viewtopic.php?p=59761&highlight=#59761

[Rob W]

Scuderia_Russ should know. He works in motorsport. For a well known team. He should know. On some thread, maybe this one he said." EVERY TEAM CHEATS". A team probably can't win without cheating some way. Put someone on a pedestal and they will fall off.

I agree. Exactly.. people who think teams are all sticking to the rules are the same people who think Lance Armstrong isn't one of the greatest cheats in sporting history, who has only survived due to an amazing PR campaign of flat-out denial and look at my recovery-from-adversity/poor-me stories.

(Fact: people who've ridden with or been health advisors of Armstrongs have seen him take or given him performance enhancing drugs - he's even failed completely legitimate drug-tests - yet there are people who still think he's Mr Integrity )

Rob W

[monkeyboy1976]

More from Stepney:-

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

[naknak_56]

What makes this incident amusing for me is the fact that Ferrari have been known as cheats for years where as all the Mac fanboys would have you believe that their team is whiter than white and you only have to look at all the denials even after the facts were presented (all over the internet )to see that their bubble still hasn't been burst!!!! This is big business and people will gain an advantage where ever possible.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

[quote=mikeep99]So we are to believe that nothing, not even one little thing from the detailed document & 100’s of emails/text messages etc etc at any stage could be or was used.[/quote]

That's not what I said. I was saying that there is not " a lot" of Ferrari in the Mclaren. as LDM is trying to claim.



[quote=tom]If its so close to a Ferrari then surely Ferrari should at least be able to equal it, inface if its anything less than 100% Ferrari then LDM is basically admitting Mclaren is a faster team than them because it has to be the % that isn't Ferrari that's causing Mclaren to run away with the titles.[/quote]

Totally agree, if it's such a Ferrari copy then how come its an even better car? And trying to claim it's down to drivers just just disrespectful to Kimi & Felipe lol (just mentioned that as a friend of mine thinks that Ferrari's drivers can't keep up with Mclaren's - I think he's mad considering Kimi's drive @ Spa for starters.)

[quote=Nigel Stepney]"I got information about when they [McLaren] were stopping," Stepney says. "I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car from him [Coughlan]. Ferrari got off very lightly. I was their employee at the time. I was aware of certain stuff they were doing at tests, fuel levels, for example. I knew what fuel level they were running. I think they should have been docked points personally. The question is: Did I use the information, did I talk about it?'[/quote]

Which kinda proves the point that espionage in F1 happens all the time, so why exactly is it now that Mclaren should be docked points, their drivers too, and the championship tainted as if there has never been a title won in controversial curcumstances ever before. As far as I'm concerned the 1994 title is the most tainted that I witnessed in my lifetime due to allegations of Illegal TC, PROOF of LC in the Benetton, Benetton's pitlane fire @ Hockenheim due to illegal tampering with fuel rigs, and of course the collision at Adelaide. BUT, this even as tainted as it is has not detracted from Michael Schumacher's tally of 7world titles, I mean wow, I still to this day struggle to believe that he won that many - even tho I saw them all! Its amazing.

[quote=torso]Honda was caught with illigal fueltanks and BANNED+race results stricken.

Why is McLaren not banned??????????????????

Why are not McLarens drivers results stricken????????????
[/quote]

Because Honda broke a rule in the sporting code, found by the scruitineers. Mclaren lost a case of what is basically Copyright and intellectual property rights, the Mclaren MP4-22 however meets all the technical regulations stipulated by the FIA, as does the Ferrari F2007, the BMW F1.07...

[Tom]

The glaring problem with the Stepney report, although I only skim read, he has admitted to exchanging information between himself and Mike, right? Yet he ways a few times

'He asked me what I wanted and I replied nothing but a clean and fair championship'

which it clearly wasn't if they were swapping data between each other, right? Even if they swapped an equal amount of data between the 2 teams its still not fair on the other teams, if you get my drift.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Quoting Tom's post:

Quote:
'He asked me what I wanted and I replied nothing but a clean and fair championship'

LMAO!!! That surely has to be the most hipocritical thing I've read so far, and frankly a bit of light comic relief from all this political nonsence. Surely thats a candidate for those "Quote of the Week" emails I get from my mates.

[bizadfar]

Of course the Championship is tained, there will always be lingering doubts. But there are many examples and years when the Championship was tained. For instance 2002 in Austria, where Barrichello slowed down to allow Schumacher the win. The Japanese GP of 1976 is questionable, because it really was too unsafe to race. Lauda did the correct thing, but Hunt was willing to risk it all and took the title.
The history of F1 is littered with questionable events, and in the end we just have to accept the final outcome. And of course, in anything questionable, there will be at least two sides, each proclaiming innocence, and the other victimization

Sorry but 1976 and 2002 are the worst examples
1976: hunt Fearless, and Lauda had no regrets.


2000-2002 Schumacher was in a world of his own anyway at Ferrari when paired up with Barichello, no one can deny that. It didn't make a single difference to the result

LMAO? Sounds like sour grapes to me. I loved the comment:

"There is a lot of Ferrari in his car"

by di Montezemelo

If there is so much Ferrari in his car why did Ferrari not push further to have them excluded and why did this whole thing take so long. Fact of the matter is that IF the Mclaren realy does have Ferrari designed parts inside of it, then there aren't that many of them as it took months to find them and prove their existnce.

(Not that that makes it any less bad that Mclaren have those parts in their car, if indeed it is true that they do)

So we are to believe that nothing, not even one little thing from the detailed document & 100’s of emails/text messages etc etc at any stage could be or was used.
F1 is measured in millimetres & milliseconds & is the pinnacle of engineering, the most insignificant thing could be 1 millionth of a second on the track, and a half decent organisation would have been able to use some of this data. If not directly, then even just to get new ideas or even fast tracking development & testing time.
Like the old saying goes – two heads are better than one. McLaren had two engineering teams working on there cars in effect.

Isn’t it funny that:
A Michelin shod Renault lead the way the last 2 year.
A Michelin shod McLaren was nowhere the last two years.
A Bridgestone shod Renault nowhere this year.
A Bridgestone shod McLaren leading this year.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?
Who has been proven to have both hardcopy & a constant flow of insider information about this data ?

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Hamilton gained points in even only one race because of this Ferrari /McLaren collaboration.
This alone makes the WDC tainted in some way?? As is the WCC, but this is not tainted because of something Ferrari did.

Completely agree. I must say with whoever I've talked to I've said the same point.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?

More to the point, this year's Bridgestone tires are completely new. It has been mentioned many times that Ferrari's set-up knowledge would have been negated within the first couple of races of the season.

Granted though, their tire gas use is something very interesting and probably worth knowing... but then again, other teams might have an event better 'gas' solution but not the aero package and engine to back it up.

Rob W

They ain't new at all this year.

[mikep99]

Of course the Championship is tained, there will always be lingering doubts. But there are many examples and years when the Championship was tained. For instance 2002 in Austria, where Barrichello slowed down to allow Schumacher the win. The Japanese GP of 1976 is questionable, because it really was too unsafe to race. Lauda did the correct thing, but Hunt was willing to risk it all and took the title.
The history of F1 is littered with questionable events, and in the end we just have to accept the final outcome. And of course, in anything questionable, there will be at least two sides, each proclaiming innocence, and the other victimization

Sorry but 1976 and 2002 are the worst examples
1976: hunt Fearless, and Lauda had no regrets.


2000-2002 Schumacher was in a world of his own anyway at Ferrari when paired up with Barichello, no one can deny that. It didn't make a single difference to the result

LMAO? Sounds like sour grapes to me. I loved the comment:
by di Montezemelo

If there is so much Ferrari in his car why did Ferrari not push further to have them excluded and why did this whole thing take so long. Fact of the matter is that IF the Mclaren realy does have Ferrari designed parts inside of it, then there aren't that many of them as it took months to find them and prove their existnce.

(Not that that makes it any less bad that Mclaren have those parts in their car, if indeed it is true that they do)

So we are to believe that nothing, not even one little thing from the detailed document & 100’s of emails/text messages etc etc at any stage could be or was used.
F1 is measured in millimetres & milliseconds & is the pinnacle of engineering, the most insignificant thing could be 1 millionth of a second on the track, and a half decent organisation would have been able to use some of this data. If not directly, then even just to get new ideas or even fast tracking development & testing time.
Like the old saying goes – two heads are better than one. McLaren had two engineering teams working on there cars in effect.

Isn’t it funny that:
A Michelin shod Renault lead the way the last 2 year.
A Michelin shod McLaren was nowhere the last two years.
A Bridgestone shod Renault nowhere this year.
A Bridgestone shod McLaren leading this year.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?
Who has been proven to have both hardcopy & a constant flow of insider information about this data ?

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Hamilton gained points in even only one race because of this Ferrari /McLaren collaboration.
This alone makes the WDC tainted in some way?? As is the WCC, but this is not tainted because of something Ferrari did.

Completely agree. I must say with whoever I've talked to I've said the same point.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?

More to the point, this year's Bridgestone tires are completely new. It has been mentioned many times that Ferrari's set-up knowledge would have been negated within the first couple of races of the season.

Granted though, their tire gas use is something very interesting and probably worth knowing... but then again, other teams might have an event better 'gas' solution but not the aero package and engine to back it up.

Rob W

They ain't new at all this year.

bizadfar its all simple logic to me too mate.
If my opinion is totaly wrong then why don’t we send a petition to Ron Dennis asking him to dispel all this "illinformed bollocks "and as a gesture of goodwill & to prove that it was not possible to get any benifit AT ALL from this info, to hand over McLaren’s 2008, 780 page detailed car plans and also to set up a hotline with Ferrari for the first few months of 2008 where Ferrari can ask 1001 specific questions & get answers at will.

After all it's only “mechanics title tattle” , "insignificant info", "info that all teams get from each other by observation anyway " etc etc etc

YEH I can see that happening.

When you hear a statement like that don't you stop and think Oh, that does not sound like a good idea. If your honest I think you would.
McLaren did get benifit from this illegally gained proven info & they most likely gained on the race track because of it in someway.

For me 2007 is a non event. WCC tainted. WDC tained.
And it was not the evil empires doing either.

[bizadfar]

Of course the Championship is tained, there will always be lingering doubts. But there are many examples and years when the Championship was tained. For instance 2002 in Austria, where Barrichello slowed down to allow Schumacher the win. The Japanese GP of 1976 is questionable, because it really was too unsafe to race. Lauda did the correct thing, but Hunt was willing to risk it all and took the title.
The history of F1 is littered with questionable events, and in the end we just have to accept the final outcome. And of course, in anything questionable, there will be at least two sides, each proclaiming innocence, and the other victimization

Sorry but 1976 and 2002 are the worst examples
1976: hunt Fearless, and Lauda had no regrets.


2000-2002 Schumacher was in a world of his own anyway at Ferrari when paired up with Barichello, no one can deny that. It didn't make a single difference to the result

So we are to believe that nothing, not even one little thing from the detailed document & 100’s of emails/text messages etc etc at any stage could be or was used.
F1 is measured in millimetres & milliseconds & is the pinnacle of engineering, the most insignificant thing could be 1 millionth of a second on the track, and a half decent organisation would have been able to use some of this data. If not directly, then even just to get new ideas or even fast tracking development & testing time.
Like the old saying goes – two heads are better than one. McLaren had two engineering teams working on there cars in effect.

Isn’t it funny that:
A Michelin shod Renault lead the way the last 2 year.
A Michelin shod McLaren was nowhere the last two years.
A Bridgestone shod Renault nowhere this year.
A Bridgestone shod McLaren leading this year.

Who has been with Bridgestone all along & has all the setup data you could possible want & need?
Who has been proven to have both hardcopy & a constant flow of insider information about this data ?

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Hamilton gained points in even only one race because of this Ferrari /McLaren collaboration.
This alone makes the WDC tainted in some way?? As is the WCC, but this is not tainted because of something Ferrari did.

Completely agree. I must say with whoever I've talked to I've said the same point.

More to the point, this year's Bridgestone tires are completely new. It has been mentioned many times that Ferrari's set-up knowledge would have been negated within the first couple of races of the season.

Granted though, their tire gas use is something very interesting and probably worth knowing... but then again, other teams might have an event better 'gas' solution but not the aero package and engine to back it up.

Rob W

They ain't new at all this year.

bizadfar its all simple logic to me too mate.
If my opinion is totaly wrong then why don’t we send a petition to Ron Dennis asking him to dispel all this "illinformed bollocks "and as a gesture of goodwill & to prove that it was not possible to get any benifit AT ALL from this info, to hand over McLaren’s 2008, 780 page detailed car plans and also to set up a hotline with Ferrari for the first few months of 2008 where Ferrari can ask 1001 specific questions & get answers at will.

After all it's only “mechanics title tattle” , "insignificant info", "info that all teams get from each other by observation anyway " etc etc etc

YEH I can see that happening.

When you hear a statement like that don't you stop and think Oh, that does not sound like a good idea. If your honest I think you would.
McLaren did get benifit from the illegal proven info they got & they most likely gained on the race track.

For me 2007 is a non event. WCC tainted. WDC tained.

I do not know why you approach me like I'm talking against your view. in fact I'm not, if anything I agree. I just wanted to add that if the info was no direct info. Then it is undoubtedly indirect info (the bold part I highlights is a very very important event that took place most definately and most people don't consider it.) They consider the info as only and only direct. Whereas indirect is even an advantage. This is above observation too, like a whole new level).

I'm relying on the fact that maybe you misread who wrote what (I hope), because you seem to have similar or the same views I do.

[mikep99]

I do not know why you approach me like I'm talking against your view. in fact I'm not, if anything I agree. I just wanted to add that if the info was no direct info. Then it is undoubtedly indirect info (the bold part I highlights is a very very important event that took place most definately and most people don't consider it.) They consider the info as only and only direct. Whereas indirect is even an advantage. This is above observation too, like a whole new level).

I'm relying on the fact that maybe you misread who wrote what (I hope), because you seem to have similar or the same views I do.

No bizadfar this was not refering to you. I can see we have the same opinion on this matter.

[Rob W]

They ain't new at all this year.

OK, but according to the people who make them they are not a progression of, nor based on, last year's tires. (They are more similar to the tires from 3 or four years ago in a practical sense)

It is common knowledge that this year's tires were not the advantage for Ferrari that people initially expected last year. Once teams started testing with them it showed the gap was nowhere near what some predicted.

Rob W

[mikep99]

They ain't new at all this year.

OK, but according to the people who make them they are not a progression of, nor based on, last year's tires. (They are more similar to the tires from 3 or four years ago in a practical sense)

It is common knowledge that this year's tires were not the advantage for Ferrari that people initially expected last year. Once teams started testing with them it showed the gap was nowhere near what some predicted.

Rob W

Not sure if thats 100% accurate.But I will play along.
Ok if your statement is correct then, tell me who are the ONLY two teams that have been able to get the Brigestones working for them this year.
And by the way are these the same two teams that were unkowingly in bed together ???????????

I wonder ?????????