Williams FW38 Mercedes Speculation Thread

[LookBackTime]

Another question for Williams aside its low set gearcase, will be the continued use of the cast alumnium gearcase. Prhaps it will move to Carbon or Ti ?

What will be the weight penalty using Alu for gearbox case?

[trinidefender]

Another question for Williams aside its low set gearcase, will be the continued use of the cast alumnium gearcase. Prhaps it will move to Carbon or Ti ?

Was it ever confirmed that the gearbox is actually cast aluminum? Would a forging with further machining not be lighter and stronger, assuming of course they will be able to create the shapes required through forging?

Secondly are we sure it is in fact aluminum? If you can say with certainty that it is then I won't have a problem believing you, just was there any actual confirmation?

In our helicopter (and many others) the gearbox casing is made out of a magnesium alloy for its combination of lightness and strength.

Yes cast Alu. never heard of forgings being used for F1 cases .

I would have thought aluminum wouldn't have been stiff enough on such a long object and if they used extra material that it would be to heavy.

That's why I asked for confirmation if it is in fact aluminum and not a magnesium alloy or some other metal alloy casing.

Can anybody with metal specialties advise me if a magnesium alloy casing would be viable?

[LookBackTime]

found this article:

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/66

[3jawchuck]

Yes cast Alu. never heard of forgings being used for F1 cases .

I would have thought aluminum wouldn't have been stiff enough on such a long object and if they used extra material that it would be to heavy.

That's why I asked for confirmation if it is in fact aluminum and not a magnesium alloy or some other metal alloy casing.

Can anybody with metal specialties advise me if a magnesium alloy casing would be viable?

Aluminium would be stiffer than magnesium in general. However per density they're comparable. I'd think though, that size reduction is their biggest aim and bending would be their biggest concern. So, aluminium does make sense as a choice.

[livinglikethathuh]

Magnesium's flammability may also be a concern.

[3jawchuck]

Magnesium's flammability may also be a concern.

That can be reduced by alloying with calcium, dysprosium and/or yttrium, without affecting too much the mechanical properties.

[SiLo]

Another question for Williams aside its low set gearcase, will be the continued use of the cast alumnium gearcase. Prhaps it will move to Carbon or Ti ?

What will be the weight penalty using Alu for gearbox case?

Did they not use the same style case as Mercedes? It was an aluminium cartridge that slots into a CF housing. This means they can make loads of changes to suspension geometry without making any changes to the gearbox itself.

[trinidefender]

Magnesium's flammability may also be a concern.

That can be reduced by alloying with calcium, dysprosium and/or yttrium, without affecting too much the mechanical properties.

When I first started flying a helicopter with a magnesium gearbox casing I actually asked the same question. In the 30 something years that this type has been flying I don't know of any gearbox fires to have taken place. Even with the rotor system disk brake placed on the casing. I would think if it can be approved for the super conservative world of aviation it could work in f1, assuming it is desireable of course.

[livinglikethathuh]

Magnesium's flammability may also be a concern.

That can be reduced by alloying with calcium, dysprosium and/or yttrium, without affecting too much the mechanical properties.

When I first started flying a helicopter with a magnesium gearbox casing I actually asked the same question. In the 30 something years that this type has been flying I don't know of any gearbox fires to have taken place. Even with the rotor system disk brake placed on the casing. I would think if it can be approved for the super conservative world of aviation it could work in f1, assuming it is desireable of course.

A magnesium gearbox casing skidding on the ground after a wheel/suspension failure is what frightens me. The sparks and the casing itself could catch fire that way quite easily.

The BMP-1 infantry fighting vehicle had a magnesium plate on the front armor and it spectacularly caught fire from glancing bullet hits.

A helicopter's gearbox casing is much less likely to come into contact with anything, and if it is in danger of contacting anything, you probably have bigger problems...

[LookBackTime]

Another question for Williams aside its low set gearcase, will be the continued use of the cast alumnium gearcase. Prhaps it will move to Carbon or Ti ?

What will be the weight penalty using Alu for gearbox case?

Did they not use the same style case as Mercedes? It was an aluminium cartridge that slots into a CF housing. This means they can make loads of changes to suspension geometry without making any changes to the gearbox itself.

No Williams has their own gear box. Made from Alu.
Two years ago was a discussion if they should buy the Mercedes gear box. For Aero reasons they decline at that moment in time. May be this year is better to just buy the Mercedes one

[PlatinumZealot]

BMW engines since the mid 2000's have been Aluminum encased in a Magnesium Alloy.... No fires..
Magneisum is stiffer and lighter.

I think Lotus used a titanium gearbox for a few years.. Titanium is heavier than Al but it is stiffer. So it all about what the skill of the designer with the different materials.

[bill shoe]

No Williams has their own gear box. Made from Alu.
Two years ago was a discussion if they should buy the Mercedes gear box. For Aero reasons they decline at that moment in time. May be this year is better to just buy the Mercedes one

If they start buying from Mercedes then they either pay some of their specialized gearbox staff to sit around doing nothing (or at least much less) or they let the staff go and lose the ability to create the most difficult chassis component of the car. A potentially dangerous loss of internal ability and therefore independence.

Who among the non-manufacturer teams still makes their own box?
McLaren (but really a manufacturer team)
Lotus/Renault (same)
Red Bull (same)
Williams (true independent)

And who does not make their box?
Force India
Sauber (not sure)
Manor
Toro Roso

The source of your box does not directly change you from one group to the other, but it plays a role...

[Tommy Cookers]

BMW engines since the mid 2000's have been Aluminum encased in a Magnesium Alloy.... No fires..
Magneisum is stiffer and lighter.
I think Lotus used a titanium gearbox for a few years.. Titanium is heavier than Al but it is stiffer. So it all about what the skill of the designer with the different materials.

please elaborate, how is and what is an aluminium engine encased in a magnesium alloy ?? (and which model ??)

as titanium, magnesium and aluminium based alloys have essentially the same mass-specific elastic moduli
(and magnesium's mass-specific shear modulus is inferior, via its slightly unusual Poisson's ratio)
so eg how is magnesium so clearly both stiffer and lighter than aluminium ??

it's more likely to be lighter for the same strength requirement

[trinidefender]

No Williams has their own gear box. Made from Alu.
Two years ago was a discussion if they should buy the Mercedes gear box. For Aero reasons they decline at that moment in time. May be this year is better to just buy the Mercedes one

If they start buying from Mercedes then they either pay some of their specialized gearbox staff to sit around doing nothing (or at least much less) or they let the staff go and lose the ability to create the most difficult chassis component of the car. A potentially dangerous loss of internal ability and therefore independence.

Who among the non-manufacturer teams still makes their own box?
McLaren (but really a manufacturer team)
Lotus/Renault (same)
Red Bull (same)
Williams (true independent)

And who does not make their box?
Force India
Sauber (not sure)
Manor
Toro Roso

The source of your box does not directly change you from one group to the other, but it plays a role...

People keep stating that the gearbox was aluminium but are we really sure. I mean has Williams ever actually stated that it was aluminium or have people just seen what it looks like and the colour and assumed aluminium and then that idea stuck?

[scarbs]

Yes definitely aluminium.