2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[ringo]

from autosport:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122497

The noise of a Formula 1 engine could be as much as 25 per cent higher in 2016 because of exhaust regulation changes, says Williams technical chief Pat Symonds.

The sounds of the cars has been heavily scrutinised since the new turbo hybrid power unit formula was introduced at the start of 2014.

Last year, the World Motor Sport Council approved changes that demand all 2016 cars to have a separate exhaust wastegate tailpipe through which all and only wastegate exhaust gases must pass.

Speaking at the Autosport International Show, Symonds said: "In the past, everyone has run wastegate pipes into the main tailpipe of the engine and what we have to do in 2016 is separate them.

"The wastegate on a modern turbo engine doesn't open very much.

"We have a motor generator attached to the turbocharger which is one of the ways we harvest waste energy and that controls the compressor speed rather than using a rather inefficient wastegate.

"So we really try not to open it very much. In race trim, it's hardly ever open and in qualifying, we open it a bit.

"You might think, if you're not opening the wastegate, you won't hear much difference but that is not quite true.

"Because there is a pipe joining the wastegate and main tailpipe, it acts as a side branch resonator. Fancy name, what does it mean?

"It means actually even with the wastegate closed, it acts like a silencer in the exhaust.

"Getting rid of that means it'll be a bit louder.

"In terms of what you will perceive, with the wastegate closed, you'll perceive it is around 14 per cent louder.

"With the wastegate open, it'll actually be 20-25 per cent louder, so quite significant.

"We haven't heard these on the circuit yet, but I think we may hear a few of the old signature noises from the turbos, the whistles and the pops - but we will have to wait and see about that one."

Since the new engines were introduced, the sound has gradually got louder through natural development and Symonds believes that will continue.

"This is a natural progression," he said. "A lot of the sound is a function of the cylinder pressure.

"The higher the cylinder pressure the more sounds coming out and as engines develop, the way you get power is to get the cylinder pressures up.

"We've seen some big increases since the beginning of 2014 - the cars have got naturally louder and they will get naturally louder this year in addition to the changes we have made to exhaust."

I can't wait to see what we will hear."Hammer Time" should now have its own exhaust note haha.

[hemichromis]

http://en.f1i.com/news/39324-f1-manufac ... -2020.html


So engine prices now capped to a mere 12 million euros and all teams guaranteed a supply.

Will that mean someone like Red bull can pick and choose their suppliers?

[hemichromis]

It of course means the independent engine is dead and buried before it was even born.

[bill shoe]

The articles on the engine agreement say vague things about Engine manufacturers guaranteeing full supply to the field. Yea, easy to say, but what does it mean?

Mandatory powertrain supply is very problematic because F1 powertrain supply is first and foremost a marketing activity. Mandatory means that somehow, sometime, the FIA will force two companies (F1 engine supplier and F1 team) to become marketing partners when they would not do so voluntarily.

Another hypothetical-- If Red Bull says they have no supply of engines, but this is only true to the extent that Red Bull chose to cancel their contract early (or to simply not take up their option to continue it further), then are they entitled to a different and more competitive engine?

It all seems obviously flawed and unworkable, but I suspect the manufacturers agreed to it as a means of delaying anything worse.

[draw73]

from autosport:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122497

The noise of a Formula 1 engine could be as much as 25 per cent higher in 2016 because of exhaust regulation changes, says Williams technical chief Pat Symonds.

The sounds of the cars has been heavily scrutinised since the new turbo hybrid power unit formula was introduced at the start of 2014.

Last year, the World Motor Sport Council approved changes that demand all 2016 cars to have a separate exhaust wastegate tailpipe through which all and only wastegate exhaust gases must pass.

Speaking at the Autosport International Show, Symonds said: "In the past, everyone has run wastegate pipes into the main tailpipe of the engine and what we have to do in 2016 is separate them.

"The wastegate on a modern turbo engine doesn't open very much.

"We have a motor generator attached to the turbocharger which is one of the ways we harvest waste energy and that controls the compressor speed rather than using a rather inefficient wastegate.

"So we really try not to open it very much. In race trim, it's hardly ever open and in qualifying, we open it a bit.

"You might think, if you're not opening the wastegate, you won't hear much difference but that is not quite true.

"Because there is a pipe joining the wastegate and main tailpipe, it acts as a side branch resonator. Fancy name, what does it mean?

"It means actually even with the wastegate closed, it acts like a silencer in the exhaust.

"Getting rid of that means it'll be a bit louder.

"In terms of what you will perceive, with the wastegate closed, you'll perceive it is around 14 per cent louder.

"With the wastegate open, it'll actually be 20-25 per cent louder, so quite significant.

"We haven't heard these on the circuit yet, but I think we may hear a few of the old signature noises from the turbos, the whistles and the pops - but we will have to wait and see about that one."

Since the new engines were introduced, the sound has gradually got louder through natural development and Symonds believes that will continue.

"This is a natural progression," he said. "A lot of the sound is a function of the cylinder pressure.

"The higher the cylinder pressure the more sounds coming out and as engines develop, the way you get power is to get the cylinder pressures up.

"We've seen some big increases since the beginning of 2014 - the cars have got naturally louder and they will get naturally louder this year in addition to the changes we have made to exhaust."

I can't wait to see what we will hear."Hammer Time" should now have its own exhaust note haha.

[FW17]

The articles on the engine agreement say vague things about Engine manufacturers guaranteeing full supply to the field. Yea, easy to say, but what does it mean?

Mandatory powertrain supply is very problematic because F1 powertrain supply is first and foremost a marketing activity. Mandatory means that somehow, sometime, the FIA will force two companies (F1 engine supplier and F1 team) to become marketing partners when they would not do so voluntarily.

Another hypothetical-- If Red Bull says they have no supply of engines, but this is only true to the extent that Red Bull chose to cancel their contract early (or to simply not take up their option to continue it further), then are they entitled to a different and more competitive engine?

It all seems obviously flawed and unworkable, but I suspect the manufacturers agreed to it as a means of delaying anything worse.

So what is the speculation on when the revised pricing kicks in? immediately?

[rscsr]

So what is the speculation on when the revised pricing kicks in? immediately?

The price is only limited from 2018 to 2020.

[Per]

It all seems obviously flawed and unworkable, but I suspect the manufacturers agreed to it as a means of delaying anything worse.

This is a very quick conclusion on a set of rules that has not even been formally published yet!

There are several ways in which this "guaranteed supply" may be implemented. Note that the fixed price means there will be no real negotiations between team and supplier, just a simple yes/no answer. This allows you to write a rule such as:
"when a team requests an engine deal with a supplier, the supplier cannot refuse this request unless they already supply to 3 teams (including its own outfit)".

This would create a situation where Mercedes and Ferrari will make sure they each always have 2 customers tied to them (e.g. Williams+Force India; Sauber+Haas). Next, Red Bull comes in and asks "guys we want your engines because these Renaults are too crappy". Mercedes and Ferrari now have no duty whatsoever to agree, because they have already done their part of supplying the rest of the grid. They don't even have moral obligation anymore. They can simply say no and point out that Renault and Honda have not done their part yet, and Red Bull can't even scream that they risk having no engines at all.

If this hypothetical rule of mine is indeed what has been agreed, all teams will always be able to find engines (because 4 suppliers can guarantee engines to 12 teams). The price is fixed so negotiations will be straightforward; it's actually the engine suppliers who get to choose to whom they supply. The best engines will be in highest demand, so Mercedes gets to pick its customers first, then Ferrari, etc.

I think something along these lines is likely to have been agreed. Mercedes and Ferrari will be happy because they control who has the best engines of the field. The small teams are happy because they get cheaper engines. The FIA and the commercial rights holder are happy because there is stability of rules and security of supply, and the battle axes can be buried.

The only party who would be rather upset about this situation would be Red Bull, because they will never get the best engines. But the Strategy Group and the Commission, where the agreement was reached, do not require unanimous decisions. So it is possible to leave one team screaming on the sideline.

I'm looking forward to seeing the details of the agreement.

[David1976]

It of course means the independent engine is dead and buried before it was even born.

...and that this engine formula will likely be here for the foreseeable future. With time the cost of these powertrains will decrease anyway and I cannot now see the manufacturers agreeing to a new engine formula any time soon.

[hemichromis]

It of course means the independent engine is dead and buried before it was even born.

...and that this engine formula will likely be here for the foreseeable future. With time the cost of these powertrains will decrease anyway and I cannot now see the manufacturers agreeing to a new engine formula any time soon.

I agree! I don't expect any manufacturer would like to start a whole new engine formula as the chances of getting it very wrong are great. Only Mercedes got it right first time.

[toraabe]

They only need to increase the fuel flow. 1200 HP in race trim and it is not too much.
Just look at this Escort MK1 with a Pinto engine in it with a decent turbo .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsBOUJ5MQrI

[bill shoe]

It all seems obviously flawed and unworkable, but I suspect the manufacturers agreed to it as a means of delaying anything worse.

This is a very quick conclusion on a set of rules that has not even been formally published yet!

There are several ways in which this "guaranteed supply" may be implemented. Note that the fixed price means there will be no real negotiations between team and supplier, just a simple yes/no answer. This allows you to write a rule such as:
"when a team requests an engine deal with a supplier, the supplier cannot refuse this request unless they already supply to 3 teams (including its own outfit)".

Imagine Engine Manufacturer X (it could be any of them) has contracts to supply two teams, then Red Bull shows up and says: "We demand to use your engine, and we refuse to sign an agreement to not publically criticize your brand. Further, we have a consistent history of publically complaining about our suppliers to the point that they have to reconsider their entire marketing (i.e. engine supply) effort in F1." So yes the implication is that manufacturers should line up non-lousy marketing partners (teams) of their choice in advance to avoid this situation, but I think there will always be one of the Engine Manufacturers that is the odd man out and is therefore screwed with the situation I described. I don't see a solution to this in your simple rules. I also figured that if there was a workable and simple solution in the FIA plan then it would have been publicized instead of the vauge intention that was mentioned in the press release.

[Per]

So the result of your situation will be that the best 2 (or even 3) engine suppliers are going to find enough customers to avoid having to supply Red Bull. Those with a worse package are going to be condemned to supplying Red Bull. It's a game of musical chairs. So yes, one manufacturer will be screwed, if Red Bull does not calm down after their 2015 walk of shame. And 1 engine manufacturer will be screwed.

Still I think a regulation like this is likely to have been agreed, because it benefits the majority of the parties represented in the Strategy Group and the Commission.

Also, I wonder if your scenario is at all likely, because agreements not to publicly criticize a supplier are probably common practice. If engine manufacturer X already has a contract in place with customer Y, which include such agreement, it will be easy for X to step to the FIA and say, "look, we offered Red Bull exactly the same deal as our existing customer, it is not our fault if they don't want to sign".

I think the details of the agreement have not been communicated yet because it is not an "FIA plan" but rather an engine manufacturers' proposal in response to the FIAs request. I presume this has to be converted into formal regulations by the FIA, after which the WMSC can have their vote and the new rules can be publicized.

[djos]

They only need to increase the fuel flow. 1200 HP in race trim and it is not too much.
Just look at this Escort MK1 with a Pinto engine in it with a decent turbo .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsBOUJ5MQrI

That thing is basically un driveable!

[Joseki]

They are going to drop the token system from 2017 Abiteboul said today.