Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

[SR71]

That is rubbish from Tedd as usual.

That paint you see is called "Frozen." It is not really matte finish as some people are saying, but a special clear coat with micro particles in it that traps light that gives that dull gleam effect like a frozen glass. It's is used by BMW on their cars too. It's just a fashionable thing in autobody paint and as usual RedBull is allways in the "in crowd" so they put it on the car.

BMW frozen grey

http://www.bimmerpost.com/storyimages/4 ... f-d71e.jpg

Frozen blue

http://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploa ... n-blue.jpg

Do you have the source that RB is running this clear coat?

[PlatinumZealot]

Source? Well,the paint it's is right in front of you to see that it is a "frozen" paint. I would not advise thinking too deeply on this. It's just exciting looking paint that is all. Nothing about lightweight.

What i'm saying is, pretty much if the livery designer was tasked with changing the paint scheme to something young and exciting, the frozen colour in combination with a " neon" colour would definitley be near the top of the list because it is in style now. Simple as.

[Gaz.]

are you for real?

I'd love to see a team who gladly dismisses a 3 kilo aspect of their car who is for real (assuming that figure is accurate of course, which it isn't). Weight is everything and no stone is left unturned. [Emphasis added].

Just read what he actually wrote. " I think the figure was something like 3kg of paint"- that isn't 3kg heavier, just that the paint required for the chrome Mclaren's weighed something like 3kg- which is reasonable for the 2006-2008 cars judging by this article when they say that the 2009-2013 4 coat finish weighed 1-2kg so one assumes the 6 coat 2006-2008 paint jobs weighed a third more.

http://en.espn.co.uk/mclaren/motorsport ... 27211.html

[bdr529]

There is a very quick and general over view of the types of automotive paint finishes
that have been used in the last 20 years, by BMW at 2 min.

BMW Frozen Paint: Overview and Cleaning


Note: he says BMW have been using a clear coat (2 part system) since the 90's,
if I'm not mistaken, cars made in the US started using a clear coat (2 part system)
some time in the the late 70's early 80's, because of the effects of acid rain
and the damage they caused to the 1 part paint systems in use back then

[J.A.W.]

I put these links in the 'fantasy livery scheme' thread, but they'll fit well here too..

Factory paint schemes on motorcycles have utilized complex coating regimes, inc' clear for visual effect, for many decades,
at least since the early `70s.. http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/paint/triple_ ... od10e.html

But I'd still like to know if any F1 team has tried a 'dynamic' coating, with a potential aero-advantage - such as 'sharkskin'..

( that is, of course, if it isn't specifically banned, like so much stuff is)

See here: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/5/785

[SR71]

Source? Well,the paint it's is right in front of you to see that it is a "frozen" paint. I would not advise thinking too deeply on this. It's just exciting looking paint that is all. Nothing about lightweight.

What i'm saying is, pretty much if the livery designer was tasked with changing the paint scheme to something young and exciting, the frozen colour in combination with a " neon" colour would definitley be near the top of the list because it is in style now. Simple as.

Just curious if your were guessing or had facts.

This doesn't look frozen to me. I think you've latched onto this marketing term created by BMW and aren't seeing what we really have.

The general term is matte and has been around for a long time as you know. I doubt red bull is using a frozen clear coat on a non-metallic paint. The frozen product you refer to was design for metallic paints.

As far as I'm concerned we have no evidence to suggest this paint has aero benefits, but neither is this frozen paint and if any company would invest in a slippery paint technology it would be red bull so why not keep the option on the table until we have more conclusive evidence.

[Sniffit]

In the 90's Airbus experimented with a grooved surface, but IIRC the idea was scrapped because of durability issues.
A few years ago a European airliner took up the idea again (Lufthansa?), but application was an issue as well as again, durability. However from a F1 standpoint these would be non-issues.
One drawback from using this grooved/sharkskin paint is that the paint appears dull/matte.

This is all from memory so I might have missed something, but it seems like something an aero-centric team like Red Bull could pursue.

[henra]

That is rubbish from Tedd as usual.

That paint you see is called "Frozen." It is not really matte finish as some people are saying, but a special clear coat with micro particles in it that traps light that gives that dull gleam effect like a frozen glass.

You might be right. I'm still a bit torn on this subject.
The 'Matte' finish would support a very thin turbulent boundary layer. This is in general inferior to a perfect laminar flow. That said, any imperfection on a high gloss surface (Gap between panels, Carbon weave shining through, etc.) will cause separation. In this case the air doesn't re-attach quickly and the drag will be higher than with a controlled thin turbulent boundary layer. Therefore they could possibly use less filler and/or achieve a little bit less drag. But it is really difficult to judge if in a real car with all its imperfections this would be a net loss or gain.
Having followed RBR's approach in the last years I'm somewhat tempted to believe they are simply trying this.
With the nice additional benefit of a bit of PR (which is also not completely unknown to RBR).

[Hankmoody]

Hi all!

My first post here.
I just wanted to point out that low gloss paint job added with nanometric ceramic particles could reduce friction.
Low friction coating is the key word here, it should increase windspeed on surface.
For example polishing BN coating reduces friction quite a lot.
If that paint job is done to the cars that go on grid at Melbourne I'd say that it has to be because of aerodynamics and if they drop it before 1st weekend it has been nice cover up for something else.
I won't participate for further talk about paint job and how it can be done just because I'm handcuffed to my NDA.

Offtopic
Same thing with ICE. For example BN can be added to engine oil to get lower friction.
I don't know how it works with engines but i'd guess that same amount of fuel but lower piston friction means more RPM?
Not sure if it is commonly known that fuel suppliers add ceramic particles to oil.
I do it for my '00 M5.

Edit: Had to take one small detail away from post.
BR:
Hank

[bdr529]

We shouldn't get hung up on the name frozen because it's just a word that BMW have given this paint finish

Describing how shinny or glossy an automotive paint finish is, is no different to the paint you use in your house.
names and terms used are flat, matte, velvet, eggshell, satin, pearl, low luster, semi gloss and high gloss, just to name a few,
But they are just names that individual paint companies have chosen to describe a given gloss level,
All based on marketing and the need to separate ones company product from that of a competitor
There real is just 4 levels Flat, Low Gloss, Semi Gloss and High Gloss,
all the rest just fit some where into the gloss range of the last 3 Low/Semi/High

Unfortunately I have yet to find something on this clear coat and what is in it, if anything
I'm searching for a technical data sheet, but no luck so far. I'm still looking

[Gridlock]

It's impossible for us to know, unless one of us finds an invoice for SUPER SECRET FRICTIONLESS PAINT in the trash.

It looks cool and fashionable so it might just be that. I think you're all a bit quick to dismiss what Ted says, seeing how he got that from talking to "people" and, y'know, I don't think he meant the burger van guy.

When the Merc rolls out in a BMW colour we'll know for sure it's aero

[Gridlock]

It's not hard to find examples of aerodynamically-useful paint 'finishes'.

http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/laminar_flow_chat.html

Ace: Are different paints or even paint schemes resulting in laminar changes?
Ethan: Very good question. It turns out that laminar flow is very sensitive to the roughness of a wing which can depend on the paint scheme. With this experiment, we are going to make the smoothest glove surface possible for the researchers. Then we are going to paint the glove surface and "rough it up" in order to see the DRE technology works with different paint schemes.
Ace: Small bumps? Out of paint or glue? Are the bumps in a pattern?
Ethan: I think of the small bumps or DREs as being very, very tiny pieces of scotch tape that are applied in a line along the front of the wing. The DREs are a couple of millimeters in diameter and much shorter in height than a human hair.

[mrluke]

That does not happen on a Red Bull car I'm afraid. No way, no how. No team gives up 3kg in weight because of paint I'm afraid. I'm not sure where people are getting this nonsense from.

So why isn't it just bare carbon? Why apply any paint at all?

Rather than using a BMW brand label we can just call it satin paint

As other posters have said, satin is pretty popular at the moment, redbull are pretty good at marketing

[Gridlock]

To sell fizzy pop...

[Hankmoody]

But they are just names that individual paint companies have chosen to describe a given gloss level,
All based on marketing and the need to separate ones company product from that of a competitor
There real is just 4 levels Flat, Low Gloss, Semi Gloss and High Gloss,
all the rest just fit some where into the gloss range of the last 3 Low/Semi/High

Unfortunately I have yet to find something on this clear coat and what is in it, if anything
I'm searching for a technical data sheet, but no luck so far. I'm still looking

No need to search TDS as low friction particles or ceramics are non harmful substances so no need to put those to TDS or MSDS. Also note that if it is product that "does not excist" there are no data sheets made for it.
F1 paints are not guarded by the rule book I assume.

About the gloss levels I can say that you can create extra low gloss paint by adding "magic dust" to low gloss paint. "Flat gloss" is typically used by military and Flat paint normally has low radar reflection but ofcourse it also needs that specific shape of object.

These are widely known "secrets"