Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hemichromis
hemichromis
14
Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 15:00

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Interesting interview:

Originally posted by Muramasa on another forum.

Nakamura interview, seems conducted at the end of 2nd day
http://as-web.jp/new...c_id=1&no=71278
http://sportiva.shue...st_30/index.php


------------------ when has the new car been completed?

finished assembling new car about 2 weeks ago at factory, and conducted fire-up already as well. After that, we found some things that we wanted to modify further not only on PU side but also chassis side, so dismantled the PU once. You would like to keep updating to the limit no matter how small it is as long as time allows.

---------------- this year is 2nd year, how would you reckon?

it's 2nd year, but we made a lot of modifications to power unit from last year, so I was nervous until the car started running on track.
------------ you encountered trouble from day 1

regarding the trouble that occurred in the morning of 1st day, we had some mechanical issue around inlet that we had been having, and we already worked on solution, but the parts couldnt be manufactured in time for testing, so we had no choice but to start testing knowing we have an issue. The components are scheduled to arrive in time for 2nd session.
However, this PU we are running at 1st test is this year's spec. There are still room for improvements in reliability as those troubles show, plus we have some things we havent completed on performance yet, so the plan right now is that we will make final confirmation about the updated package in 2nd test and then going to the opening race.

--------------- after the trouble occur, you started running again quickly

We already decided to continue running by sacrificing performance in order to prioritize other items to test in case of trouble, so after trouble occurred as expected, we made changes to how to use it and sent the car out again.
Last year we went through variety of troubles so we think we improved in terms of making the car continue running under such situation. We get used to operation, so mechanics are learning/understanding deeper about what should be done in case of trouble.

--------------- JB's comment was posive after the 1st day

JB told that deployment has improved a lot at the debriefing after the session. Engineers at Sakura who worked extensively on this year's PU and members of Milton Keynes were all smiling hearing his comment, so it's good. But to be frank our PU hasnt yet reached the level we are targeting. We'd like to improve performance as well as reliability further.

----------------- what is the reason for improved deployment?

The reason is that basically turbo (cannot judge whether it means turbine or comp or both. in sky footage Hasegawa was saying turbine btw but not sure he was being precise either) was weak so we modified there significantly. Regarding MGU-H, we made some tweaks on reliability, but motor unit itself has already almost reached the target, so havent touched much.
--------------- what do you think of competitors?
The main objective of this testing is to confirm/verify the function of this year's PU and check control system that we'd like to work on for this year. We are not in a situation where we can say anything about other makers PU. Firstly we need to bring our PU to our target level. We are confident we can achieve that. However, I'm hearing rumors about other makers PU situation, and even if we improve, rivals will improve too, so we are ready to accept tough situation to continue. Manor with Merc PU will be threat too. So it will be close battle under the raised standard of the competition, but we'd like to manage to go up. Having said that, we dont care about our current position right now, and to be frank we have no idea.

------------ JB said it will be shame if you couldnt go on to podium at all this year?

we cannot ask for such luxury yet. The objective is to go through to Q3 securely. I'd like drivers to race targeting there at those circuits that suit our chassis&PU combo, but to be honest we think we havent reached that level yet where we can constantly aim at podium. It will take struggle and some more time until we accomplish our target. In development of such high level power unit, it is not easy to raise technical level. added to that, even if we could raise the level, it is impossible to establish it to meet the tough reliability requirement of 4-5000km per unit in parallel.

------------------- there is a talk that the unit you are running at 1st test is mark I, then put Mark II for 2nd test, then bring Mark III for opening race?

Basically the unit we are going to use at opening race will be spec 1, so the power unit we are running right now is "development spec". Therefore, while we will be making small tweaks here and there until the opening race, we are not calling each and every one of them by different name.

-------------------- looks like quali system will change, but even if that's the case, objective is still going through to Q3?

Yes, there is no change ot the objective of going to Q3 stably. We have to aim there first otherwise we wont be able to have proper race.

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Great news. thanks @Hemi for that.
So they run limited performance set up trought 4 days due to inlet problem.
There is still performance in the bag.
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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hemichromis wrote:Mclaren Honda staying that close to Mercedes to 280kph sounds good anyway!
Not too shabby. Renault in 2015 was usually always 8-10 kmh down at around those speeds.

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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These power units are so insane from a technical point of view. Even just concentrating on combustion is like a chess match. Because there are so many ways to influence it with both electro machines. The K being attached to the crank influences how combustion affects the cylinders, so does the H by being able to control exactly how much air goes into the engine at any given time. Knowing all of this is one thing, but being able to orchestrate all of this to produce as much power and harvest as much electricity as possible is an art form. It's ironic and somewhat regrettable that the whole thing is so secretive.
Saishū kōnā

livinglikethathuh
livinglikethathuh
11
Joined: 15 May 2015, 23:44

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote: It's ironic and somewhat regrettable that the whole thing is so secretive.
This x 1000

I'd kill to have this tech in my car. In any car. Anywhere that I could see what it actually looks like.

damager21
damager21
17
Joined: 04 Jan 2015, 09:35

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Image

Above is a speed trap comparison between Day 3 testing this year and Qualifying last year at Barcelona.

Image
Above is a speed trap comparison between 2015 first test, 2015 qualifying and this year test at Barcelona.

What is apparent from the speed trap is that McLaren' speed sees the biggest drop as compared to all other teams clearly indicating that they are running detuned engine. Also, speed of all teams barring McLaren is either same as their 2015 qualifying speed or higher. Honda engine sees a drop of 6.5 kmph.

Lucky
Lucky
157
Joined: 15 Feb 2014, 09:23

Re: Honda Power Unit

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The 2016 spec Honda PU(Aria's) was installed in the MP4-31 in January
but they ran into problems.(had to redesign some parts for it would fit correctly)
In early Feb they started it up and ran it in the MP4-31(on a shaker like rig/dyno) and they ran into reliability problems.(intake part or parts failed) The replacement(re-designed) parts will not be ready until first race.
So the first test this week the PU was run under reduced power.
They hope to turn up the power the next test(it ran great Fri and Sat during and finally sounds great during photo shoot..ran 100km each day and pits stop practice)
Aria lost his job when they ran the PU in the MP4-31 for the first time and it fail 3 weeks ago.Also with the R&D Skunkworks Team's PU out-performing his 2016 PU on the dyno didn't help either!
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1271161

damager21
damager21
17
Joined: 04 Jan 2015, 09:35

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Lucky wrote:
The 2016 spec Honda PU(Aria's) was installed in the MP4-31 in January
but they ran into problems.(had to redesign some parts for it would fit correctly)
In early Feb they started it up and ran it in the MP4-31(on a shaker like rig/dyno) and they ran into reliability problems.(intake part or parts failed) The replacement(re-designed) parts will not be ready until first race.
So the first test this week the PU was run under reduced power.
They hope to turn up the power the next test(it ran great Fri and Sat during and finally sounds great during photo shoot..ran 100km each day and pits stop practice)
Aria lost his job when they ran the PU in the MP4-31 for the first time and it fail 3 weeks ago.Also with the R&D Skunkworks Team's PU out-performing his 2016 PU on the dyno didn't help either!
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1271161
I wonder as to why would McLaren and Honda decide to use Arai's engine if the one created by Skunkworks team was out performing his engine on dyno. Defies logic.

The only reason I can think of is that the engine designed by Skunkworks team though powerful was extremely unreliable. On basis of this, I would continue with Arai given that he has seen through a bad year and his team worked on creating a more reliable engine for this year. They could have focussed more on extracting performance as the next step.

Also what happens to Skunkworks engine?

Bence
Bence
2
Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 06:36

Re: Honda Power Unit

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For the Skunkworks/Old Boys Engine, it's still better this way, as it is easier to find reliability than outright performance.

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FW17
169
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Honda Power Unit

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damager21 wrote:
Lucky wrote:
The 2016 spec Honda PU(Aria's) was installed in the MP4-31 in January
but they ran into problems.(had to redesign some parts for it would fit correctly)
In early Feb they started it up and ran it in the MP4-31(on a shaker like rig/dyno) and they ran into reliability problems.(intake part or parts failed) The replacement(re-designed) parts will not be ready until first race.
So the first test this week the PU was run under reduced power.
They hope to turn up the power the next test(it ran great Fri and Sat during and finally sounds great during photo shoot..ran 100km each day and pits stop practice)
Aria lost his job when they ran the PU in the MP4-31 for the first time and it fail 3 weeks ago.Also with the R&D Skunkworks Team's PU out-performing his 2016 PU on the dyno didn't help either!
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1271161
I wonder as to why would McLaren and Honda decide to use Arai's engine if the one created by Skunkworks team was out performing his engine on dyno. Defies logic.

The only reason I can think of is that the engine designed by Skunkworks team though powerful was extremely unreliable. On basis of this, I would continue with Arai given that he has seen through a bad year and his team worked on creating a more reliable engine for this year. They could have focussed more on extracting performance as the next step.

Also what happens to Skunkworks engine?

Possibly the engine from the other team was a developmental concept engine which if going to be pursued will need to be made race ready.

erikejw
erikejw
3
Joined: 13 Apr 2012, 14:32

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Bence wrote:For the Skunkworks/Old Boys Engine, it's still better this way, as it is easier to find reliability than outright performance.

Maybe the Old Boys engine could not be fitted in the McLaren car due to different parts at new places so the dimensions is wrong. The 2017 engine will probably be based on that one. Where does that leave the 2016 engine when it comes to upgrades?

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RicME85
52
Joined: 09 Feb 2012, 13:11
Location: Derby

Re: Honda Power Unit

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erikejw wrote:
Bence wrote:For the Skunkworks/Old Boys Engine, it's still better this way, as it is easier to find reliability than outright performance.

Maybe the Old Boys engine could not be fitted in the McLaren car due to different parts at new places so the dimensions is wrong. The 2017 engine will probably be based on that one. Where does that leave the 2016 engine when it comes to upgrades?
In that scenario the tokens would be used as planned on the 2016 PU as the 2017 engine wont be needing tokens or planned token use

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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erikejw wrote:
Bence wrote:For the Skunkworks/Old Boys Engine, it's still better this way, as it is easier to find reliability than outright performance.

Maybe the Old Boys engine could not be fitted in the McLaren car due to different parts at new places so the dimensions is wrong. The 2017 engine will probably be based on that one. Where does that leave the 2016 engine when it comes to upgrades?
I think the engine you refere to will be modyfied so that it could be fited by race 11 or 12 this year.....or so i hear. ;)
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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Chene_Mostert
-2
Joined: 30 Mar 2014, 16:50

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
erikejw wrote:
Bence wrote:For the Skunkworks/Old Boys Engine, it's still better this way, as it is easier to find reliability than outright performance.

Maybe the Old Boys engine could not be fitted in the McLaren car due to different parts at new places so the dimensions is wrong. The 2017 engine will probably be based on that one. Where does that leave the 2016 engine when it comes to upgrades?
I think the engine you refere to will be modyfied so that it could be fited by race 11 or 12 this year.....or so i hear. ;)
It just sounds like one BIG mess.
Who would have thought that Honda's return to F1 would be such an unorganized circus. In absolute shambles.
This time the McLaren-Honda partnership will come to zero and by 2017 the Honda board will pull the plug on F1 project.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

radosav
radosav
23
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Has anyone seen MkII engine or is this just Holy Grail of new V6 turbo engine era? :roll: