Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dot235]

Not what I expected from someone I honestly thought was a little bit more technically minded than my mere self.

I'll take anything Daniel Ricciardo says as the truth because he's a straight shooter, so I have no doubt there's more power.

If I understand what you are saying though, there's no other way that Renault are suddenly smashing Mercedes in the speed traps, apart from engine upgrades ?

Get a grip mate.

Gosh... The nerve of some people.

All he said was that Renault possibly made some power gains, which is very likely all things considered.

Do you always consider the data to be utter garbage if it's any less than 100.1% representative of the real deal and think that anyone disagreeing with you automatically swears by the total and complete accuracy of it?

[Webber2011]

Not what I expected from someone I honestly thought was a little bit more technically minded than my mere self.

I'll take anything Daniel Ricciardo says as the truth because he's a straight shooter, so I have no doubt there's more power.

If I understand what you are saying though, there's no other way that Renault are suddenly smashing Mercedes in the speed traps, apart from engine upgrades ?

Get a grip mate.

Gosh... The nerve of some people.

All he said was that Renault possibly made some power gains, which is very likely all things considered.

Do you always consider the data to be utter garbage if it's any less than 100.1% representative of the real deal and think that anyone disagreeing with you automatically swears by the total and complete accuracy of it?

Look, maybe I'm no good at saying what I'm trying too without offending someone ?

All I'm trying to say is that when I see a Mercedes way down the order, I can't count those speed trap figures as being representative of anything really.
There's so many other things to consider.

I do agree that Renault seem to have found a bit more power, but can't help but believe many other things were in play when those times were done.

[toraabe]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and exelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

[jure]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and excelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

And how can pre spinning the turbo make so huge power differences (difference Renault - Merc)? I always thought that Merc simply has so good combustion and fuel. Turbo consists of compressor and turbine. Compressor is supposed to compress air that goes into combustion chamber. On the same axes there is also turbine, which is responsible for harvesting exhaust energy and is also mechanically connected to mgu-h.
I don't see any advantage in pre spinning the whole assembly (turbine - compressor) besides the compressed air that goes into the ice. But compression is inefficient use of energy - heat generation. Wouldn't it be better if mgu-h powered wheels directly (over mgu-k - almost directly, 95% efficiency) instead of pre spinning the turbo? As far as I know mgu-h in sustained mode can not generate 120kw so there is also never excess of energy.

[Blackout]

We are trying to take the many other things into account*, you're not Webber. You're just focusing on the 'low' Merc speed trap which isnt enough.
And Merc's speed trap are often 'low'; their car generates tons of DF/drag.
The Mercs were 328kmh fast during qualy 2015 here, so with DRS, qualy engine map and low fuel. Would they somehow do 450kmh with slpitstream?
*
-like comparing the RS.16 with the E23 speed trap here, in qualy and winter (different wind, air temp and density) testing. The former is basically an AbuDhabi version of the latter so it should generate a similar amount of DF. Its drivers and engineers also suggest that.
And it seems the RS.16 si regularly having equal or better speedtraps. So the 2016 Renault PU might be close to the customer 2015 Merc PU. Palmer also suggests that in one of his last interviews. Autosport also suggests Palmer noticed a performance difference compared to Barcelona1...
-Some RBR speed trap irregularities compared to 2015 also imply that
There are some other hints (and official interviews) that suggest a nice progress. And no one said that progress will be enough for catching the best PU.

[lio007]

Does anybody know if RBR did the 2 Barcelona tests only with one PU or have they got a new one in Test 2?

TBH I hope they did all the 3800km on one PU (in terms of milage per PU). To give an indication if they need extra PU in the comming season or not.
I also wonder if Renault only changed the failed turbo or more parts of the PU.

[Blackout]

AMuS says Renault team used two PU for test1 and 2. So if they changed the PU after Palmer's issue (I hear they did. They sent the first one to Viry), the second unit did around 650 laps
5 x (race + 62qualy or FP lap)

[toraabe]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and excelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

And how can pre spinning the turbo make so huge power differences (difference Renault - Merc)? I always thought that Merc simply has so good combustion and fuel. Turbo consists of compressor and turbine. Compressor is supposed to compress air that goes into combustion chamber. On the same axes there is also turbine, which is responsible for harvesting exhaust energy and is also mechanically connected to mgu-h.
I don't see any advantage in pre spinning the whole assembly (turbine - compressor) besides the compressed air that goes into the ice. But compression is inefficient use of energy - heat generation. Wouldn't it be better if mgu-h powered wheels directly (over mgu-k - almost directly, 95% efficiency) instead of pre spinning the turbo? As far as I know mgu-h in sustained mode can not generate 120kw so there is also never excess of energy.

Pre spinning the turbo means that you always have boost pressure up when you are throtteling up. Hence instant response. You don't want like the 80" when it could take up to 2 sec to get boost up. And then all came at once.

[toraabe]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and excelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

And how can pre spinning the turbo make so huge power differences (difference Renault - Merc)? I always thought that Merc simply has so good combustion and fuel. Turbo consists of compressor and turbine. Compressor is supposed to compress air that goes into combustion chamber. On the same axes there is also turbine, which is responsible for harvesting exhaust energy and is also mechanically connected to mgu-h.
I don't see any advantage in pre spinning the whole assembly (turbine - compressor) besides the compressed air that goes into the ice. But compression is inefficient use of energy - heat generation. Wouldn't it be better if mgu-h powered wheels directly (over mgu-k - almost directly, 95% efficiency) instead of pre spinning the turbo? As far as I know mgu-h in sustained mode can not generate 120kw so there is also never excess of energy.

Pre spinning the turbo means that you always have boost pressure up when you are throtteling up. Hence instant response. You don't want like the 80" when it could take up to 2 sec to get boost up. And then all came at once. When Nico Rosberg lost the ERS in one race, it took him almost 3 seconds before the boost was up ....

[Juzh]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and excelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

And how can pre spinning the turbo make so huge power differences (difference Renault - Merc)? I always thought that Merc simply has so good combustion and fuel. Turbo consists of compressor and turbine. Compressor is supposed to compress air that goes into combustion chamber. On the same axes there is also turbine, which is responsible for harvesting exhaust energy and is also mechanically connected to mgu-h.
I don't see any advantage in pre spinning the whole assembly (turbine - compressor) besides the compressed air that goes into the ice. But compression is inefficient use of energy - heat generation. Wouldn't it be better if mgu-h powered wheels directly (over mgu-k - almost directly, 95% efficiency) instead of pre spinning the turbo? As far as I know mgu-h in sustained mode can not generate 120kw so there is also never excess of energy.

Pre spinning the turbo means that you always have boost pressure up when you are throtteling up. Hence instant response. You don't want like the 80" when it could take up to 2 sec to get boost up. And then all came at once.

Everyone's been doing this since 2014.

[taperoo2k]

When you are looking at the Renault leaving and arrives the pits, you can hear in different videos that the mgu h is pre spinning the turbo like Mercedes have been doing since 2014. Since both Mario Illien and Alex Wenddorf are working for Renault the latter certainly knows how Mercedes has implemented this. And as I have wrote in the past it is in Mercedes interest that Renault comes to term with their engine. 50 hp up from last year and excelent drivability also means that 2016 will be quite interesting.

And how can pre spinning the turbo make so huge power differences (difference Renault - Merc)? I always thought that Merc simply has so good combustion and fuel. Turbo consists of compressor and turbine. Compressor is supposed to compress air that goes into combustion chamber. On the same axes there is also turbine, which is responsible for harvesting exhaust energy and is also mechanically connected to mgu-h.

I don't see any advantage in pre spinning the whole assembly (turbine - compressor) besides the compressed air that goes into the ice. But compression is inefficient use of energy - heat generation. Wouldn't it be better if mgu-h powered wheels directly (over mgu-k - almost directly, 95% efficiency) instead of pre spinning the turbo? As far as I know mgu-h in sustained mode can not generate 120kw so there is also never excess of energy.

From the F1 site -

MGU-H (where the ‘h’ stands for heat)is an energy recovery system connected to the turbocharger of the engine and converts heat energy from exhaust gases into electrical energy. The energy can then be used to power the MGU-K (and thus returned to the drivetrain) or be retained in the ES for subsequent use. Unlike the MGU-K which is limited to recovering 2MJ of energy per lap, the MGU-H is unlimited. The MGU-H also controls the speed of the turbo, speeding it up (to prevent turbo lag) or slowing it down in place of a more traditional wastegate.

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than was possible with KERS, the ‘bolt-on’ recovery system ERS replaced in 2014. That means drivers have access to an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap. https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-we ... stems.html

All I can say about Mercedes is they've probably found a way to use the MGU-H more efficiently than the rest in different parts of a race. Seems Renault may have made a leap forward on the power side of the PU. It should make the first few races interesting.

[godlameroso]

Well increasing boost pressure at low rpms probably creates much more exhaust pressure as well, which only serves to enhance turbine output as well as recovery. I mean using a very powerful mgu-h gives you much more control over combustion than a weak one by controlling the precise amount of air entering the combustion chambers. I believe that's part of the trend towards ever larger turbos, is that it gives you more control over the airflow into and out of the engine, I think a lot of the efficiency gains come from this. Not directly mind you, but rather indirectly because by having so much control over airflow into the engine, one becomes able to gain a better understanding of the combustion process. It's simply having more control over the variables in your experiment. I wouldn't be surprised if the torque curve on these engines is as flat as my humor.

[Tommy Cookers]

Well increasing boost pressure at low rpms probably creates much more exhaust pressure as well, which only serves to enhance turbine output as well as recovery. ......

the MGU-H simultaneously motoring and generating ?
or what exactly ?

[godlameroso]

As in more complete combustion creates more exhaust gases sooner and can take over spooling the turbine from the mgu-h sooner as well.

In other words using the MGU-H only as a catalyst for combustion.

[Webber2011]

We are trying to take the many other things into account*, you're not Webber. You're just focusing on the 'low' Merc speed trap which isnt enough.
And Merc's speed trap are often 'low'; their car generates tons of DF/drag.
The Mercs were 328kmh fast during qualy 2015 here, so with DRS, qualy engine map and low fuel. Would they somehow do 450kmh with slpitstream?
*
-like comparing the RS.16 with the E23 speed trap here, in qualy and winter (different wind, air temp and density) testing. The former is basically an AbuDhabi version of the latter so it should generate a similar amount of DF. Its drivers and engineers also suggest that.
And it seems the RS.16 si regularly having equal or better speedtraps. So the 2016 Renault PU might be close to the customer 2015 Merc PU. Palmer also suggests that in one of his last interviews. Autosport also suggests Palmer noticed a performance difference compared to Barcelona1...
-Some RBR speed trap irregularities compared to 2015 also imply that
There are some other hints (and official interviews) that suggest a nice progress. And no one said that progress will be enough for catching the best PU.

Now you're just being silly.
I never claimed anything along those lines I've bolded in your post.

I've even agreed that there does indeed seem to be a power increase !

All I've ever said is that many other factors need to be taken into account.

I.e. I've seen it mentioned on a few forums now, this one included, that the RBR speed was without doubt set with a nice slipstream and DRS.

We can go back and forth forever I guess, but I honestly can't be bothered.