When will ALO leave McLaren?

[Phil]

gary, wow. =D>

What a perfect summary. I couldn't agree more.

[Andres125sx]

So everything was Alonso´s fault in McLaren...

Alonso complains about Mclaren favouring Hamilton, but that must be false, he´s Alonso...

McLaren boss stated they´re not fighting Kimi, they´re fighting Alonso, but that means nothing...

McLaren do some noob mistakes overinflating Alonso´s tires wich make his car half a second slower instantly in next-to-last GP qualifying, but that must be a coincidence (another one)

Next season Alonso chose to drive a midfileder instead of a winning car, when he had a contract with that winning car so he could have stayed in McLaren, but that means nothing, it must be normal drivers choosing midfielders instead of top cars

And next season, without Alonso, Hamilton is driver #1 from day one with the team forcing Kovalainen to let pass Lewis even in first races of the season, but that means nothing either, it´s just one more coincidence because McLaren has always treat equally all his drivers, 2008 was first season ever and means nothing about 2007...


It´s not McLaren favouring Hamilton, these are all coincidences, it was Alonso because, well, he´s Alonso and that justifies anything...


Ok, I give up

[Phil]

Just a quick reply: I never said everything was Alonso's fault.

I'm not saying that it was by his own doing that resulted in the fallout with McLaren, but no matter how bad it was, he could have handled himself better.

My point was clearly focusing on the fallout between Alonso and McLaren at the point Alonso blackmailed his team that later turned into spygate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Form ... ontroversy

The 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix was a controversial weekend for McLaren; Alonso held Hamilton up in the pit lane during qualifying, denying Hamilton a chance to record a final lap time. TV pictures showed Ron Dennis angrily throwing his headphones down as Alonso pulled out of the pits, and after the session was over he was then shown having a serious conversation with Alonso's trainer. On the morning of the race (August 5), Alonso met Ron Dennis in his motorhome and allegedly threatened to send his email exchanges with McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa and Coughlan to the FIA. According to Max Mosley, Ron Dennis informed him of the conversation and told Mosley that the threat was an empty one, "There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.” Mosley subsequently retracted the implication that Dennis had lied.[26]

On 5 September 2007, the FIA announced that it had received new evidence regarding the case, and would re-open the investigation on September 13. This replaced the planned appeal hearing.[27] It later transpired that the new evidence was the driver's emails that were sent to Bernie Ecclestone, F1's commercial rights holder who then informed the FIA.[28] The FIA requested the three McLaren drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and de la Rosa) to provide relevant evidence and help FIA in further investigation. In return FIA offered assurance that any information made available would not result in any proceeding against the driver personally under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One Regulations. However, the drivers were notified that if it later came to light that they had withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow.

Also here is the official motorsports council press release:
http://web.archive.org/web/200710220605 ... 130907.pdf

3.1 In the period after the 26 July Decision, the FIA was made aware of a specific allegation that e-mails relevant to the FIA’s investigation had been exchanged between certain McLaren drivers.

3.2 The FIA therefore wrote to three McLaren drivers (Mr. Alonso, Mr. Hamilton and Mr. de la Rosa) to establish whether or not this allegation had any basis in fact and requested that they produce copies of any relevant documents, including any electronic communications (howsoever conveyed or stored) which may be relevant to this case and which make reference to Ferrari, Ferrari’s employee Nigel Stepney (“Stepney”) or any technical or other information coming from or connected with either Ferrari or Stepney.

3.3 The McLaren drivers were reminded of their duty as competitors and Super Licence holders to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the Formula One World Championship. Given the importance of establishing the facts and that the information might not come out any other way, the FIA offered the assurance that any information made available in response to the letter would not result in any proceedings against the drivers personally under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One Regulations. However, the drivers were notified that if it later came to light that they had withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow.

3.4 All three drivers responded. Mr. Hamilton responded that he had no information responsive to the FIA’s request. Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa both submitted emails to the FIA which the WMSC finds highly relevant. Subsequently (at McLaren’s request) both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa made written statements to the WMSC verifying that these e-mails were sent and received and offering context and explanations regarding the e-mails. The e-mails show unequivocally that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by
Coughlan from Stepney.

So Alonso allegedly blackmailed Ron and he undeniably had emails and data that would allow him to blackmail.

That was around race 11 out of 17 of the 2007 season. Before the race, the two were separated by just 2 points.

I'm sorry but no matter how bad the favoritism was, how unfair this might seem to a Alonso fan or supporter (btw for the record, I was rooting for Alonso that year), you don't blackmail the team or your boss that is supplying you with the tools to win in the first place. You just don't. At that point, any workable, fixable relationship you might still have went straight out the window and becomes unfixable.

And how well a driver could perform under such circumstances is questionable when he is not only fighting his rivals on track, but his team as well.

This topic raised the question if it is just that one of the most talented drivers of our generation and in our sport might be out without winning another WDC, heck perhaps even another race. It's hard to argue against the fact that Alonso contributed his share in creating an unworkable relationship with his team that led to him leaving the best chance at the time of securing that 3rd or maybe even 4th WDC title and a more promising outlook for the future and his career.

I'm a believer of an employer / employee relationship. An employee is never bigger than his employer. And in F1, that is a team of hundreds if not thousands of employers and ending with one single (or two) drivers. No, not even Alonso is bigger than *any* team and his lack of success since 2006 has demonstrated this nicely that even as the best driver, WDC titles are no guarantee unless you are sitting in a car that is capable of winning and a team around you that supports and gives you that opportunity.

[Andres125sx]

I'm sorry but no matter how bad the favoritism was

Sorry but can´t agree, I don´t think any driver could be so stupid to blackmail his own team if the situation is not already unsustainable so he think that´s the only way he can get equal treatment. Sorry but I can´t believe Alonso is that stupid

Also, you didn´t mention all this happened next day Lewis put a complain wich caused Alonso´s penalization so he started that morning from 5th place instead of pole he did, and I think that´s an important remark

I can´t blame Alonso if, after that, he thought the team was not doing the best for the team, but only the best for Hamilton. In my book 1-2 is much better for the team than 1-5, but that didn´t stop the claim. And remember another important remark, the situation was caused by Hamilton, who denied letting pass Alonso when the team asked him to do so repeatedly (it was his turn), so they both arrived the box at same time with no extra time to do both pit-stops in time. Ok Alonso stopped some seconds more than needed (asking about the reason they didn´t put him new tires), but the situation was caused by Lewis. Lewis fault, Alonso pay the bill.

I think at that point Alonso realiced McLaren was going to support Lewis the rest of the season as he really was a title contender, so he did whatever he thought necessary to continue fighting for the title.

Wrong? Probably. But I don´t think he had any more options apart from accepting #2 treatment, wich obviously shouldn´t be an option for a champ when his team mate is a rookie

But this is F1, politics play a huge role, and Lewis was what McLaren needed at that point, a british champ (many many years after the last one) who was the protege of the team boss since he was 12, and had the option to become WDC in his very first season.... It was too tempting to not try, even if that meant they had to overinflate Alonso´s tires, allow complains against one of their drivers, make public statements about you fight your own driver, etc.


They fought Alonso, not Kimi.... and Kimi won. It´s called karma.

[PlatinumZealot]

Why is there no "He left already, stupid!" option in the poll?

[Phil]

Sorry but can´t agree, I don´t think any driver could be so stupid to blackmail his own team if the situation is not already unsustainable so he think that´s the only way he can get equal treatment. Sorry but I can´t believe Alonso is that stupid.

This is where we disagree then. As I said, in an employer/employee relationship, the employee is never bigger than the team. They are not equals. You don't blackmail your team over data that you yourself profited from and will lead to a 100 million fine, possible disqualification and exclusion of the WCC and further price money.

I can believe favoritism on part of McLaren and especially Ron towards his protegee (Lewis), but I can not believe they out rightly sabotaged the 2 times world-champion they paid good money to drive for them in the first place. And then to go and blackmail your boss, sorry - there's no better way than to create that animosity towards you that will only limited your chances and your ability. In short; he made that relationship between him and the team unworkable, plain and simple. And when the season ended, his only option was to drive for a team who finished a distant 4th and did not win a single race in 2007, instead of remaining with the team that later won the 2008 championship.

You are never bigger than your team. And for the record; Favoritism is part of life. We as fans may not like it, but the driver has no say in the matter, or on the very least, favoritism involves your character and you yourself influence how likeable you are. Just ask Webber, Barrichello, Massa, Kimi, Kovalainen, heck even Hamilton too during his days teamed with Button (there are more than a few references pointing to Hamilton never being that popular with his team and that relationship disintegrating the longer he stayed at McLaren). Note I am talking about favoritism, not equality. Even if a team decides to run two drivers unequally, still does not give the right to any employee to blackmail his team. To do so is in the very most cases career suicidal. In other words; utter stupid.

This to me quite clearly highlights the mentality of Alonso far too well, the same mentality he also displayed at Ferrari, prompting Montezemolo to say that no driver is ever bigger than the team 7 years later, and his outburst at McLaren again last year.

In consideration of this, perhaps I can't feel to sorry for Alonso. He might be the most gifted driver on todays grid and his ability is certainly going to waste in that McLaren, but it's hard to feel sorry knowing he ousted himself out of two championship winning teams on not exactly the best terms. And if I had any guess in to the shaping of his career, I think his rather unique persona played its role in how attractive he was for certain teams like RedBull or Mercedes at various points.

As a f1 fan and spectator, sure I'd love to see him in a WDC winning car. That drama would be pure entertainment. But if I was a team owner tasked with signing a driver, I'd certainly look at more than just pure driving skill. This doesn't only apply to F1, but to just about every single business out there.

[Vasconia]

(in reply to Vasconia)

...or having two highly competitive McLaren drivers would have resulted in them taking more points away from Ferrari and Massa? It could have gone either way sure... I just think that moving away from a winning team for a situation that was also partly self inflicted is a double fail. Those two years at Renault only set him back. At least one could say that he achieved driving for the Scuderia which was perhaps his end goal anyway, but I never quite got the impression that Alonso and Ferrari were as harmonized as a team, as perhaps Schumacher and Ferrari (back in the day) or Vettel and Ferrari right now (although how that will end up after a few seasons is still up in the air).


Bhall II, very good point. I also agree, it's a damn shame.

I doubt it, two competitive drivers helps when both are ahead of their competitors, if not they steal points each other.

Schumacher and Ferrari were a real team because Michael understood what was Ferrari and even with his big ego, his relation with the Scuderia was always great(not so good with Montezemolo, perhaps).

[dot235]

I somehow have a feeling that relationship inside the team is much worse than they make it look like. No Alonso merch to buy at the start of the season but plenty of Button's merch... Also it's hard to believe that "dʒiˈpi two engine!" was a one time thing and hard to believe that someone of Alonso's character who was actively criticizing everyone at Ferrari just because he got unlucky and didn't win the WDC at the last race would be able to so easily and kindly put up with such a slow (relatively) car for this long.

My personal opinion is that he is indirectly forced to stay at the team as per contract until it expires yet at the same time he's off the record in the talks with Mercedes and... this is funny, but according to what he says it's easy to think that he doesn't want to be in any other team that doesn't have the fastest car or won't have it in the near future. Yet it would be hard to find a single driver on the grid who wouldn't be able to fight for the WDC with the fastest car.

Either way, I still find his departure from Ferrari very very weird. I wonder if maybe in fact leaving the team wasn't his goal when negotiating contract renewal. And if not Vettel, maybe Ferrari would have agreed to whatever outrageous terms Alonso was asking ...

[Andres125sx]

I can believe favoritism on part of McLaren and especially Ron towards his protegee (Lewis), but I can not believe they out rightly sabotaged the 2 times world-champion they paid good money to drive for them in the first place.

Believe it or not, allowing one of your drivers to put a complain to the other, is in some way sabotagging one of your drivers, and that´s exactly what happend before. McLaren could have stopped the complain arguing it was all caused by Lewis, if he would have let Alonso pass when the team asked for it, there would have been zero problems, but he didn´t and caused the cascade of incidents wich came later. Instead of McLaren arguing this to stop the claim for the best of the team, they allowed Hamilton claiming against Alonso, causing a harm to the team (1-5 instead of the 1-2 they achieved), who didn´t care at all, because hey, Lewis managed to be first thanks to the complain...

Do you really think this is not sabotagging? In my book it is, they caused a harm to Alonso even when it also caused a harm to the team, but they didn´t care because it was good for Lewis

And what about China when they overinflated Alonso´s tires by mistake? A F1 team making a mistake with tire pressure on previous to last GP when his two drivers where fighting for the title? Sorry but I´m not that naive, that´s sabotagging, plain and simple.

Note I am talking about favoritism, not equality. Even if a team decides to run two drivers unequally, still does not give the right to any employee to blackmail his team. To do so is in the very most cases career suicidal. In other words; utter stupid.

This to me quite clearly highlights the mentality of Alonso far too well

So you think he´s stupid. That´s all. It does explain your reasoning tough

And for the record; Favoritism is part of life. We as fans may not like it, but the driver has no say in the matter, or on the very least, favoritism involves your character and you yourself influence how likeable you are. Just ask Webber, Barrichello, Massa, Kimi, Kovalainen

Good examples, now you only need to find one single example of a current WDC being treated as #2. Then, if you find it, add to the equation his team mate is a complete noob, a rookie in F1 with no previous experience, and really young.

If you really think this situation is normal and Alonso had no reasons to be upset, then I can´t help you.



Alonso is arrongant, agree, I´ve stated that myself more than once. But that does not change the fact McLaren was extremely unfair with him because they were dying to see Hamiltong as a WDC in his very first season. Both combined caused all those problems, I can agree with this, but I can´t agree with that idea wich is repeteadly expressed about it was all Alonso character. Yes you said it was not all his fault, but then spent some long replies talking exclusively about Alonso´s problematic character, and justifying McLaren behaviour...

[Andres125sx]

Ranting? That´s funny. You can disagree, but I only pointed to some facts people usually never consider when talking about 2007....

Ok I then made my interpretation, but at least I took them into account trying to understand that season, not like others who simply ignore those facts as if they never happened

[Facts Only]

Ranting (not facts):

And what about China when they overinflated Alonso´s tires by mistake? A F1 team making a mistake with tire pressure on previous to last GP when his two drivers where fighting for the title? Sorry but I´m not that naive, that´s sabotagging, plain and simple.


F1 teams make mistakes all the time, McLaren made some shockers from 2007 to 2012. Remember when the left the radiator bung in Jensons car at Monaco? Was that sabotage as well? Or when they made numerous pitstop errors in 2012 was that sabotage?

No F1 engineer I know would deliberately wreck their own drivers chances, for a start they aren't vindictive arse holes, secondly losing the title in 2007 cost them £1000's each in lost bonus payments and thirdly if someone on high like Ron Dennis did order it, then the lower guys down the chain would have been so irate at losing the money they would have blown the whistle years ago.

[Andres125sx]

First of all, that´s not ranting, that´s showing facts, and then providing my opinion about those facts, wich may be different to yours but it´s based on a reasoning I´ve perfectly explained. If you disagree ok that´s the reason for fourms, but it´s far from ranting.

Secondly, all you say is very reasonable, until you realize McLaren thought they had the title secured with any of their two drivers because there was only two races to go and their two drivers were first and second, with Kimi 18 points back. I must remind at that point the winner only scored 10 points, so 18 points advantage with two races to go made them think the season was done.

Who could think Kimi will recover 18 points to Lewis when there was only 20 points left? None, so there was no problem at all making Alonso´s car some tenths slower. Your reasoing is ok until you realize this fact, then it becomes weak

The money problem you talk about actually was not a problem. The only doubt was if that money would go to one side of the box, or the other. Or that´s what they thought before Lewis scored only 2 points in final two races at the same time Kimi won both races, making posible what two races back looked imposible.

Yes F1 teams make mistakes... but with only two races to go, both McLaren drivers fighting for the title, and Kimi almost discarded, it was easy for McLaren to think the title was already secured so they could choose what driver will win. And obviously for them (a british team without a british champion for too many seasons), Lewis was much better.

Do you really think this is all a coincidence? Politics don´t play any role in F1? I stopped believing in coincidences in F1 a long time ago, this sport is strongly dictated by politics, and Lewis winning in his very first season would have been best news for McLaren in decades. Unfortunately for them, Lewis did in final two races all the mistakes he had not done previously and Kimi nail it those same races, ruining all their plans

[Facts Only]

ranting

/rantɪŋ/
noun
noun: ranting; plural noun: rantings

a long, angry, and impassioned speech.

Long: Yes, Angry: Yes, Impassioned: Yes

You're definitively ranting, you've decided in your mind that some awful conspiracy against Fernando happened to deprive him of the title and you wont listen to any reason from people involved in the industry about why it is so utterly absurd.

I could pick apart your arguments but cant be bothered because like other conspiracy theorist there's no point as the conspiracy will just be expanded to suit your own narrative.

[Andres125sx]

Angry? No sir, I´m just exposing facts and providing my opion. About long and impassioned, this is a forum, so yes, obviously, but that does not mean any impasioned long reply is ranting

Ok, so for you it was all coincidences, F1 is a pure sport with no politics involved and anyone who think about any hidden interest is a paranoid because there´re no hidden interests in F1....

C´mon Facts Only, for McLaren fans this is a very convenient conclusion, but far from reality. As we all know in F1 there are tons of hidden interests at all parts, from FIA to teams and manufacturers.

How do someone with your nickname justify a team boss saying he fight his own driver, and that after paying the whole career of his team mate? And noob tire pressure mistakes on critical GPs when they thought the titles was done for them? Or a F1 driver renouncing to the best car when he had a valid contract with the team but even so he renounced to it and went to a midfielder?

It´s not just one or two coincidences, the favouritism to Hamiltons was as outrageous and scandalous as it can get on a secretive world like F1 infested of confidentiality clauses.

[Facts Only]

Yeah O.k, it's a fact then, Alonso was deliberately sabotaged by McLaren, man never went to the moon and 911 was an inside job. Carry on arguing the point to death I'll nod politely and just get on with working and socialising with people who were there and know what actually happened. It's easier to just let you have the last word.