2016 McLaren F1 Team - Honda

[Strax]

Although I have not posted much, I feel the need to say the following:

This engine formula is completely different than before, but most people think about them as they used to think about the older engines. This is a fuel limited formula and just sharing a simple number does not really say anything. Maybe the Honda engine has 900 max HP and the Renault engine "only" 880 HP (exact numbers are irrelevant).

But it is the efficiency of the engine that will dictate, in this limited fuel formula, the actual/average HP during the race. Maybe the Honda can run at full HP for 5 laps and the remaining laps at 70%, whereas the Renault could run at full HP for 10 laps and the remaining laps at 85%.
So, which engine will perform better over a race distance??
This is where also the fuel saving problem comes up, which should be extremely difficult to improve...

[proteus]

Saying that Mclaren chasis is terrible is quite literally silly. It aint the best for sure, but jet it aint that bad either. They are pouring tens of millions into it during the season alone. I dont blame Honda for all of trouble, but they should face it that most of them really comes from the engine itself. The way the engine is put together (configuration) should be used last year, and if it was, they would probably be capable to fight for podiums this year.

Last year it was said the same about the chasis, that it is one of the weakest and jet the car proved itself in Monaco with an engine that was in some cases even 3 figures down on power. Take a look where was Williams in that race.

The biggest issue that Mclarens chasis is causing is tyre degradation. They were capable of good and long stints in Sochi, due to the smoother asphalt. Where the asphalt is more rigid, the problems will resurface with loss of positions from qualifying. Where is Honda as an engine right now? I say arround atleast 10-20 horsepower down on Renault at full output. Mercedes must have arround 80, or even more hp of advantage.

I wonder what type of asphalt will be used in Hungary as the track is getting renovated.

Redbull has the best chasis, but insuficient engine. Mercedes has best engine and above average chasis, that loses its strength when the car falls out of its natural position. Ferrari has a strong but fragile engine, with more that average chasis. Williams has more than average engine and an average chasis. STR has average engine (which is not coupled well with the chasis) with more than average chasis. FI has more than average engine, with very specific averga chasis which is designed for achieving max speeds. Manor has spec atleast as powerfull as the 2016 custumer Ferrari engine and decent chasis. Sauber has decent engine and terrible chasis. Haas has strong engine and very specific chasis which works differently than that of FI - it has strengths of using its tyres to maximum as long as possible in some tracks, and on other tracks losing its ground completely. Renault has average (or little below average) chasis, with plain average engine, somewhere in the range of 2015 Ferrari, or still a bit down on power.

Then we come to Mclaren: Bit more than average chasis with its shortcummings (tyre degradation), and average, or even slightly below average engine.

If the Honda engine would perform as some people are suggesting, then they should be on top of the straight line speed, especially with low drag settings they are using, angling their wings much less than others. With same angling as ltes say FI, the straight line speed would be still 10-20 kmh lower.

Engines of 2016:
- Mercedes (Mercedes)
- Ferrari (Ferrari)
- Mercedes (Williams, FI)
- Ferrari (Haas)
- Mercedes (Manor)
- Ferrari (Sauber)
- Ferrari 2015 (STR)
- Tag Heuer (Red Bull)
- Renault (Renault)
- Honda (Mclaren)
*Ferrari 2015, Tag, Renault and Honda are closely together with small differences)

That is my opinion which may be totaly wrong and partial , now im going to put my fingers into the cold water for atleast 5 minutes

[FW17]

The difference between the best chassis and the above average chassis is 1.5 sec and the rest down to the engine.

So when one demands perfection from Honda, why not use the same stick on Mclaren? 2nd year with a concept after probably a budget of $300 million on the chassis and still 1.5 sec behind? What is going on at Woking?

[DiogoBrand]

From my POV, if McLaren's chassis is above average, it's very slightly above. Let's not forget that they haven't been able to finish above 5th since 2012, and that involves a season with the V8s and a season with Merc's magical PU.

I really don't get why people think that since last year their chassis has magically gone from the seriously compromised design it was to "one of the best chassis on the grid".

Prodromou may have been able to improve their desing, and even that isn't a guarantee, but they're certainly not close to being top of the field on that front.

They're very lucky that now they're at least able to dump all the criticism into the horrible PU they have, and the fact that they even made this awful partnership with Honda just shows how lost they are in their philosophies.

[Wazari]

Ah the internet and social media can be such a good resource and also can create so much misunderstanding and harm. I have made some acquaintances through this forum and even got to meet one at Melbourne. I hope he had a good time as he got a free meal at the McLaren compound, took a selfie with JB and got a tour of the pits. He sent a bottle of expensive scotch as thanks which was greatly appreciated. I have also been called an idiot, delusional, fake amongst other things from members here also. Such a strange thing this internet has become.

I did take an assignment with HRD. Things have changed at Honda and I am not sure if I made the right decision to come back. I am being well compensated for my time but the frustration and cultural changes within HRD have made it extremely mentally taxing especially for an old geezer like me. My daughter keeps on saying, “I told you so………..”

I am posting here because I believe my days here at HRD are coming to an end. I have put in many hours, HRD has my ideas and engineering work with regards to the ICE. I really don’t know if I can contribute any further. Please do not ask for any specifics or flood my inbox demanding information. I get sick and tired of people thinking they are entitled to upcoming developments without even a “please or thank you.” It’s up to McLaren, Nakamura-san and Hasegawa-san to decide what changes to make moving forward. There are many proposals on the table including mine, but now it’s up to them.

The media-journalists..haha. People, I think it is important to know that the media twists things more times than not. Also people like EB, (especially EB), Arai-san, Hasegawa-san, Ron Dennis, Toto Wolf, Christian Horner, etc. are all above anything else politicians. They speak company agenda, personal agenda and the truth in that order. For example, the “size zero” issue which seems to still garner so much discussion to this day. One of my conditions for returning back to HRD was that I have full transparency of all communications between McLaren and Honda past and present with regards to this project. This concept of mini-packaging was obviously from McLaren and it is well documented. The layout was obviously Honda’s. This concept was pushed hard to Honda and Honda with their too much pride to say no, said okay. This is a common fault of many Japanese business practices and can set them back, best case scenario or ruin them. That fact that Honda caved and said no problem was definitely Honda’s fault 100%. Then Arai-san told McLaren after the 2015 season that it might possible to rearrange the plumbing to make the bodywork even tighter and at that point McLaren said no, that’s not necessary. Somehow people take that fact out of context and start saying that “size zero” was not McLaren’s agenda. Well whether you believe me or not, “size zero” definitely came from McLaren and it was pushed hard. So it didn’t work thus far, whose fault is it? I think both, but ultimately Honda for moving ahead with such a difficult and IMO a compromised layout.

The chassis- I am not a chassis nor aero engineer. What makes a good chassis? IMO, this comprises of many different components, mainly aero work and suspension. I do know several chassis engineers and they all tell me that translating telemetry and race data and relating it to whether a component is working or not is the most difficult aspect of their work scope. I’ve also been told on numerous occasions that from concept to full development is just like a PU, a 3 to 4 year timeline. So how anyone can derive whether a chassis is good or not based on numbers based on a few races is beyond me. If a car appears well-planted what does that really mean? Compliant suspension, lots of DF, a combination of the two? I don’t know, engineers you tell me. Even driver input can be subjective and difficult to assess. Drag coefficient seems not to be discussed but an important component of aero work. Two cars can have the same drag coefficient with different amounts of DF. This is where it seems RB shines. A junior engineer at McLaren somehow tweeted, Insta-gram or Snap-chat or one of these social media portals, probably having too many ales and/or extremely frustrated called the MP4-31 “trying to move a brick” and somehow spread before taken down. I think that is an exaggeration but again made it to the internet. Obviously drag coefficient plays a part in overall top speed. This probably cost him his job.

F1 has become a fuel efficiency battle. At full fuel flow limit, our ICE makes good power. I believe that gap to Mercedes is about 5-7%. However Mercedes has done an exceptional job of extracting maximum HP at less than full fuel flow settings. Their combustion process is second to none right now. We have a very good idea at what they accomplished. This is the area that I have been focusing on. All teams are carrying max fuel load at the start of the race so far. The compressor design Honda is using is unconventional and redesigning the internal structure is very difficult. I can’t go into detail but let’s just say more conventional compressors are easier to manipulate for desired output. Honda underestimated many potential trouble factors. The amount of heat from the ERS was one area. Intercooling was another. When the initial PU was put under bodywork, a lot of people were surprised and there was no turning back at that point. The amount of progress has been massive considering the numerous trouble areas that plagued this PU last season. Heat dissipation, overall reliability and deployment have significantly improved. It obviously isn’t nowhere enough. As I mentioned, there are numerous solutions that have been worked up. As to which ones will get implemented is above my rank and paygrade. Improvements are coming. I don’t know when and I hope they’re my team’s solution. Our team is three people, not four as mentioned in previous posts.

So people, please don’t be mean to each other. It doesn’t solve anything. Discussion is great and I enjoy that aspect in this forum but personal insults serve no purpose. For the record, Sasha is definitely “an insider”, not a Honda fanboy (actually far from it) and does not drive a Civic. Actually his daily driver is a F458 and ironically has a McLaren in his garage.

If I get in trouble for this I don't care. I have no personal agenda. I hope to see the two members in Silverstone and one in Austin as planned. Wazari.....out......

[Sayeman]

This concept of mini-packaging was obviously from McLaren and it is well documented. The layout was obviously Honda’s. This concept was pushed hard to Honda and Honda with their too much pride to say no, said okay. This is a common fault of many Japanese business practices and can set them back, best case scenario or ruin them. That fact that Honda caved and said no problem was definitely Honda’s fault 100%. Then Arai-san told McLaren after the 2015 season that it might possible to rearrange the plumbing to make the bodywork even tighter and at that point McLaren said no, that’s not necessary. Somehow people take that fact out of context and start saying that “size zero” was not McLaren’s agenda. Well whether you believe me or not, “size zero” definitely came from McLaren and it was pushed hard. So it didn’t work thus far, whose fault is it? I think both, but ultimately Honda for moving ahead with such a difficult and IMO a compromised layout.

I agree Wazari. Ofcourse Mclaren had a say in the PU design, otherwise they wouldn't have any qualm about having Mercedes's customer PUs. Honda hasn't delivered like Mclaren hoped it would but some of the blame falls on mclaren's shoulder too.

[bauc]

Thank you Wazari for stepping in, your input to this forum has been exceptional. I wish you all the luck

[Pany]

Thank you Wazari. Very few people would do like you. chapeau!

[ripper]

Very nice post, thank you!

[max_speed]

thanks a lot wazari san.

you are one of the main reason i keep coming back to this forum and gain bit knowledge.

my say is that you win as a team and loose as a team Mclaren-Honda is one team. what happened is of thing in past.
no one should blame each other. there is only way forward.

lets hope solutions Honda are going to put moves team forward and take challenge up to Mercedes. best of luck for future endeavors.i have no doubt that Honda will be back. hope its back soon.

[Vasconia]

At least if they can make a complete redesign of the PU they should be on the top next season.

Yeah ..I'm not sure it works like that. They'll get better ....."on top" is another matter.

The best thing about next year is no more tokens. So we might see radical changes in season on the PU.

This is why I haved said that the step forward could be much bigger and THAT they could solve some structural problems of the PU.

[j2004p]

If I get in trouble for this I don't care. I have no personal agenda. I hope to see the two members in Silverstone and one in Austin as planned. Wazari.....out......

I hope you dont get in trouble, can't see that you've said anything that gives Honda or Mclarens trade secrets away!

Hope you continue to post as I always find your insights to be fascinating!

[tok-tokkie]

Many thanks for that post Wazari and welcome back. It made me go back to read Sasha's posts and now have a very clear idea about the true state of affairs.

[Thunder18]

@Wazari san, =D> =D> thank you for your efforts and post!!

I thought Sasha's wordings were somewhat familiar and I wondered if he's ever been the wrong side up in an NSX!!

Whatever decisions in life, try to remain happy and content...

[GoranF1]

Once v6 hybrid power and output and efficienty gets equliezed beetwen engine manufactures all they will have left to do is shrink it...so size zero is good idea,allthough pushed a bit to soon by Mclaren maybe.