Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:For the benefit of those out there that might assume a "fuel hungry engine" means a piston engine that uses more fuel than the competition.

The "engines" all use fuel at the same rate - 100 kg/hr @ full power. If two engines have similar "full power" performance, they have similar crankshaft power (plus a maximum 120 kW for each that can be added from the MGUK).

A possible difference between the two engines is the power recovered from the MGUH (which is equal to turbine power minus compressor power). The engine with higher MGUH power will be able to operate for longer with 120 kW going to the MGUK before depleting the ES, at which point the "full power" output must drop to the self-sustaining output (crankshaft plus MGUH). To make up the shortfall, the weaker engine can be used to charge the ES during part load sections of the course by loading the MGUK and/or the MGUH to charge the ES. Of course this requires extra fuel giving rise to the term "thirsty engine" for what is in fact a less powerful power unit.
Another thing to think about is the combined power curve of the MGUK and the ICE. Depending on how much ES and how well the MGUH works at various loads/rpms, the Honda power curve may be more linear with the MGUK peaking at higher loading and higher revs, requiring more fill from the ICE in the lower revs, whereas the Mercedes might be deploying the full MGUK at every loading and rev range, helping the ICE.

I'm also curious the differences in the brake regenerating across the teams. I'd expect all to be within a percent or so of each, but maybe not?
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hemichromis
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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http://www.thisisf1.com/2016/05/09/toro ... hisisF1%29

Apparently Toro Rosso will be looking for a Honda engine next year

I've got the salt shaker out!

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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hemichromis wrote:http://www.thisisf1.com/2016/05/09/toro ... hisisF1%29

Apparently Toro Rosso will be looking for a Honda engine next year

I've got the salt shaker out!
Would they want the 2016 engine?

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Maybe RollendaNSX could confirm the rumor for us?
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Sonador
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote:
hemichromis wrote:http://www.thisisf1.com/2016/05/09/toro ... hisisF1%29

Apparently Toro Rosso will be looking for a Honda engine next year

I've got the salt shaker out!
Would they want the 2016 engine?
I think not, this year they are running a 2015 engine because Ferrari were not able to suply 2016 engine's on this short notice.

Here is a link to an article explaining why: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/07/toro ... -official/

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Here are again Murramassa's quotes from Japan media talking about Honda.
Interesting quali. mod info.




              Friday                   

http://f1sokuho.mopi...663&tt=-1&at=15

(PUs used in Sochi are) completely same as before spec wise, so as power unit itself, not much can be done about it to be honest.
This is a power track, so we are working on more effective use of it, such as combustion timing setting, in order to be able to maintain quali setting run as long as possible.
(quali setting run is) using it kinda as overtake button, for example
Russia is more severe than Bahrain in terms of fuel consumption, but we want to run at non fuel saving mode as much as possible
today the car itself was running stably. That both cars were within top 10 is not the reason for it. At China we were plagued with tyre degradation, but Sochi has smooth surface and less fast corners, so our long runs were stable. If we can get good position at quali, we'll be able to have good performance in race as well this time it seems.
in order for that, it appears fuel consumption will be essential factor. Russia is more severe than Bahrain in fuel consumption, so it's expected to be the toughest race of the season so far in terms of fuel consumption. But at the stage of FPs, the car balance is better than in China and the long run pace is good, so finding out the setting that enables non fuel saving run as much as possible is our task for Saturday and Sunday.
(regarding token use) Nothing has been decided yet.




Saturday

http://f1sokuho.mopi...702&tt=-1&at=15
Had it not been for the understeer that occurred on the final attack lap, we would've had good chance to go through to Q3 because the gap to top10 was only 0.1s.
it's not that we failed on anything, just that we should've added a bit more front wing
- JB's race engineer Tom Stallard (not sure about spelling) decided to add front wing for the final attack, and asked JB if he wanted to add front wing angle by 1 turn of the adjustment screw, but JB answered "half turn".
[info in the article]
We have to accept that this is the situation we are currently in. This is a power track, and it's not that we made any big mistake in quali. This is our capability/performance. I'm gutted about that. We must solve and get out of this situation.





Sunday

http://www.as-web.jp/f1/14511
http://f1sokuho.mopi...746&tt=-1&at=15
http://sportiva.shue.../05/04/post_44/
also f1sokuho (print)



pre-race ------------------------
(some quotes can be post-race actually, just cannot be sure)

Here at Sochi autodrom, if you run on quali mode, you can go faster by about 0.2sec/lap. However, it gives more loads on ICE than normal race mode. Therefore, so far we had only allowed drivers to use it for limited number of laps in one race.
we made a decision to use the full power mode, that is usually used in quali, aggressively in race as well. Wanting to use for/when overtaking and battling. Suppose the lap time difference it makes is 0.2sec/lap., that means that you can finish the race 10sec earlier in the 50laps race. Sometimes that 10sec doesnt make any difference, sometimes it makes you gain 1 position. But it's worth the try, I suppose.

There is originally certain proportion of mileage/duration within overall engine life for which the quali mode can be used. However it's not that it is dialed strictly at/on the absolute limit, but merely the point at which the reliability has been verified/confirmed. So it's not like you must not exceed the threshold even slightly, but we are constantly expanding the limit step by step by confirming/verifying the limit little by little, like "perhaps it should be ok to use this much?".
The duration that quali mode can be used is approximately determined and set by results of durability test, but it's not like it blows immediately the moment you exceed the threshold. If you can gain 0.2sec per lap, it's 2sec in 10laps, 10sec in 50laps, so it's quite significant. Of course the degree of its effect/contribution differs from circuit to circuit, so it's not like if you do it it should lead to the result without exception, besides it comes with risks, but we thought it's worth it at a power track like Sochi, so we made discussion and eventually decided to make it run at quali mode as much as possible in race as well.
This trial is something we have never done before. That means we decided to bet on this race, pour all we've got into this race.
This year we make 21 races with 5 PUs, but you know, actually it is possible that this single PU makes all the 21 races if use it by holding the performance down.

- steering wheel of mp4-31 has a switch called "red button"
- a driver presses on it to turn on quali mode ie shifting ignition timing forward to extract more power for when necessary to push in the race.
- At Russian GP, the quali mode has been turned on from the beginning. Previously the red button had been used to turn on quali mode, meanwhile for Sochi it was used to turn off quali mode.
[info in the article]

- If we deemed this is the time we should push, we aggressively use quali mode even if it means that it comes with increased risk for failure, and we dont mind about possible damage caused by it and having to change PU next race due to it, that's our stance. We explain that to our drivers as well.
[an unnamed mclaren-honda engineer quoted]





post-race ---------------------------------------

The major positive is that long run pace was good. Of course that's because car's setup was done appropriately, but power unit side was able to extract the best as well.
Midfield pack is very tight in this season's F1, so by small/subtle setup difference we can either be 5th best team or drop to 7th.
This point scoring finish is important in the sense that we could find out that if we can withdraw this car's potential properly we can fight in the midfield solidly on merit.
Surely this double scoring finish has been helped by the confusion in early part of the race, but that's part of the race as well. Car's performance is important, but experience of drivers that operate it is as much important in the race.

As a power unit, we withdrew all we've got at this very moment for today. As I told before the race start, we were thinking we wanted to make it run at quali mode as much as possible, and this time we managed to do that.
During the race we could run on quali mode almost throughout the race. Fuel saving aside, in terms of output we were running at full power. Of course this is the first time we've done this. This time we made a challenge. Especially Jenson who was competing with Sainz was attacking aggressively. He passed Sainz at the end of the race, as a result he was only able to come 10th after all, but he would not have been able to chase down and close in that much had he not been using full power / quali mode. As a car's performance, Jenson as well had the speed so he couldve finished in 7th in terms of pace.

it was not just us having fuel consumption issue, and this year we cannot give detailed direction to drivers during the race (due to radio rule), but excellent race skills of two expert drivers shined and compensated that, they managed things very well without affecting race development/result.

We have a feeling that we've done our best, so it was a very good race.
(perfect race?) No, only when you win you can say perfect. Surely this time we could finish at the top of the midfield group. But front group is extremely fast. I dont know about the fuel saving situation for Mercedes and Ferrari, but we don't consider that there was that much gap in terms of pure car performance alone. Had it been not for fuel saving, we wouldn't have been far off from the front pack that much, so that's the major issue/subject that must be overcome.
Compared to 00s back then, while overall level of rivals has risen, level of Honda itself has decreased. That we cannot be running at the front is because Honda's constitution weakened I guess. In 00s, I still had the impression that as long as we achieve the top notch technology in Japan we could win. But that's not the case anymore and completely different right now. Therefore we are working hard / doing all we can to get back the strength/form, and if we cannot get that back, there is no point to be Honda.


--------------------------------------------------



on tokens
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/12942
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/13895

Ideally you'd want to introduce new PU at the same timing as using tokens. Otherwise the PU that's already used before will have to be an old version PU unable to be applied tokens.
Of course we are working on development, so if we wish to introduce new spec PU right now, it's not impossible to do so, but as of now what's satisfactory/good enough has not been completed yet. There's no point to use token if nothing has been changed, so we dont want to use token for what's half baked.
Nothing has been decided yet at this moment, but next race at Barcelona is more a technical circuit, and the following race is monaco which is street circuit, so we consider we can be decent without upgraded PU.
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GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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So no tokens in next two GP's.
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PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:Depends how much voltage you use, the regulations allow up to 1000V, but I assume they're using ~400V
Makes no odds to the energy store charge rate...

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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But it does affect how much heat you're generating, higher voltage = lower resistance = less heat.
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PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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If you charge a lithium battery at a higher voltage you'll have more current going into it, not less = more heat, it's the energy store they're talking about, not the motor/generators.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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dren wrote:Another thing to think about is the combined power curve of the MGUK and the ICE. Depending on how much ES and how well the MGUH works at various loads/rpms, the Honda power curve may be more linear with the MGUK peaking at higher loading and higher revs, requiring more fill from the ICE in the lower revs, whereas the Mercedes might be deploying the full MGUK at every loading and rev range, helping the ICE.

I'm also curious the differences in the brake regenerating across the teams. I'd expect all to be within a percent or so of each, but maybe not?
I would expect each of the electric machines to have adequate power capacity across its entire speed range. For example, the MGUK would have 120 kW capacity at greater than 90% efficiency from say 10,000 to 15,000 (crankshaft) rpm.
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Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote: During the race we could run on quali mode almost throughout the race. Fuel saving aside, in terms of output we were running at full power.
So the Quali Mode should now be normal Mode and a Quali Mode + is to be developed hopefully.
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stevesingo
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PhillipM wrote:If you charge a lithium battery at a higher voltage you'll have more current going into it, not less = more heat, it's the energy store they're talking about, not the motor/generators.
I thought I=P/V

160000W/1000v=160A
160000W/500v=320A

Same power, higher voltage=less current.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
dren wrote:.........brake regenerating across the teams. I'd expect all to be within a percent or so of each, but maybe not?
I would expect each of the electric machines to have adequate power capacity across its entire speed range. For example, the MGUK would have 120 kW capacity at greater than 90% efficiency from say 10,000 to 15,000 (crankshaft) rpm.
the electrical machines and their drives will be around 98-99% efficient much of the time
remember the 120 kW rule assumes 95% efficiency from raw electrical energy ex-battery to mechanical energy in the crankshaft
ie the total of losses in the electrical drive and in the motor and in the gearing is assumed to be 5% or less, and similarly in generating
better than 5% will allow eg 121 kW or 122 kW etc

the design will involve matching ie what crankshaft-equivalent rpm is chosen to match the battery voltage chosen
remember that charging (likely) involves the generator voltage exceeding the battery voltage (that somewhat varying with charge state)
and vice versa when motoring
imo the match rpm will be held down to around 12500 not eg 15000
120 kW means more current with every rpm below that design limit
and so the resistive losses (and waste heat) will increase (disproportionately) with falling rpm

presumably braking recovery uses lots of gearshifts to keep rpm close to that limit
but increasing recovery by expanding the window eg trail braking will involve more time at sub-optimal rpm
so be less efficient in ES-system energy terms (but more efficient in fuel:energy terms or otherwise racetime-beneficial)


but the dominant factor in electrical inefficiency is the battery, it's 'only' about 90% efficient (and so needs cooling correspondingly)
again the matching choice (of nominal battery voltage and equivalent rpm for mgu-k voltage) implies some efficiency loss at lower rpm
but additionally, there is an inescapable inefficiency that's unrelated to current ie unrelievable by optimising rpm


though current per se is not bad ie a 500 V system is not inherently less efficient than a 1000 V system
though maybe a bit heavier
eg loosely, a 1000 V machine will need 4x the resistance of an equivalent 500 V machine
so the resistive power loss will be the same in both
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 10 May 2016, 13:20, edited 8 times in total.

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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stevesingo wrote:
I thought I=P/V

160000W/1000v=160A
160000W/500v=320A

Same power, higher voltage=less current.
Yes, but if you have two battery packs at the same energy capacity, then the 1000v one will have half the Ah capacity that the 500v one.
So you're still charging them at the same C rate. As that's related directly to the ES capacity.
Plus you've just had to physically modify the battery and BMS which takes tokens.

If you charge the same battery pack at a higher voltage, you get more current, and more losses, and more heat.